I agree with this proposal.
Zcash needs voices in the rooms where policy is written, not just in the repos where code is shipped.
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart. - Mandela
Personnaly, I see any grants below 50-100k to be quite reasonable, borderline cheap. I think people seriously underestimate how much value the US dollar has lost in the last couple of years. Welcome to the fiat maze of madness.
Yes. It is very small dollar amount, for a very expensive dinner.
Especially, considering the funding for and endowments of crypto and even Zcash connected entities.
If people don’t know how much crypto money (or even money just from Zcash-aligned and Zcash-adjacent interests) has flowed into politics in the USA, they should look it up. Or, I could provide some stats.
I don’t think it’s mostly about the money, I think it’s about the endorsement of the community for these kinds of activites.
A few years ago, @paulbrigner, Gary W. (then ECC) and I met with the Biden White House. The threat was clear: ‘you must figure out how to get us a back door to Zcash.’ Our response was also clear, we cannot, we will not. Soon after, TC was sanctioned and Roman Storm, Roman Semenov and Alexy Pertsev were arrested. Later, Samourai Wallet cofounders William Hill and Keonne Rodriguez were arrested and sentenced. The threat to our core teams is very real. And the US has a very long arm.
Another former higher-up at Fincen once told me that Zcash will never succeed. Speech is one thing, money is quite another. Someone in OFAC told me that they recognize that privacy is necessary for national security, but only if it goes mainstream, and they had no intention of allowing it to go mainstream.
In addition to the White House meeting, I have had various meetings and conversations with the DOJ and Fincen. One former DOJ prosecutor with a brief stint at Fincen, Michelle Korver, is now at a16z and a supporter of Zcash. Former acting director at Fincen, Michael Mosier, is another and a friend of the project.
It takes years to build trust, and then coalitions, to ensure that we can continue to build privacy protecting tools for people in the US, and around the world. We have built significant trust. Not by compromising our cypherpunk values, but engaging person to person.
I am not naive. Our window is limited. But we must hold that window open for as long as possible for the sake of those building, and the sake of humanity. Paul is, and has been, on the front line in DC, building a broad coalition of builders, think tanks, regulators and policy makers. It is no accident that we have been able to build in relative freedom.
Just my opinion, I know that many here care for the value of Zcash in fiat terms and its success in adoption. I know that with this current white house, participating in the corruption is the only way to make profit. Being part of the scam pays off, in terms of legislation and favors. Something good might come out of it, like more legislative space for privacy coins… right?
However,… this is not inline with any cypherpunk code of conduct. A Cypherpunk Policy Dinner should typically require 0 or hardly any funding, and be in an empty house, factory etc. to keep cost low. Besides, that would be way more fun and give the right atmosphere. For 25k$, where would that dinner be, perhaps in Trumps golden ballroom while paying for it…
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I know I have hardly a say in this community, my stake in Zcash is small, but I do think it is important to remember what it actually means to be a Cypherpunk? If it is all about profit, sure, lets do a golden ballroom stake house bribery dinner. But lets not pretend it is about Cypherpunkism.
Oh, I understand now 25k on a dinner is not the Cypherpunk way. A meetup/picnic at park with little to no spending no sharp shoes or suits etc. Just privacy advocates meeting and talking about how privacy will bring the freedom humanity deserver and needs. I was born in 91 four months before the world wide web was birth to us. Watching everything unfold up to the point Cypherpunks rubbing elbow’s with the Government what a time to be alive. I think this discussion more important because this will determine whether Cypherpunk legacy will end up.
Zcash can change the way Governments handle people privacy help with making sure those in power following the rules. Because power is not as strong and the people see the games getting played out here every day by those in power. If the dollar or something goes down where the people become rebellion Zcash will be the answer to rebuilding civilizations Cypherpunk are the Guardians of freedom and righteousness for humanity. The government asking for backdoors is a NO because they are criminal’s that’s like a black guy who’s a career robber asking for your house key because you pull up at the gas station.
Bitcoin has been hijacked if we give them Zcash as well what do we have the people will be slave the holders only have power as you hold your kids can sell and become a slave 2 gen down the line. No one safe
You joke, but the same funders who now support both Zodl and Shielded Labs also have directly donated to the $300M white house ballroom project.
I’ll include an image here from an article, which is a screenshot of an interactive graphic from the article linked below.*
There’s a lot more that could be said.. SMASH LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE! lol!
But seriously, the remaining independent people connected to this project should keep eyes up, because this connects to important topics, obviously, relating to Zcash.
ZCG should weigh carefully who they want to affiliate with.
Does this stuff even matter? Are we one issue ‘voters’? What if we evaluate these guys are good on privacy, but bad on other important things? Is there a line? Is it a good strategy to lean into and associate with these types of circles, as a community? What about shifting political winds?
Good day and good luck.
* You’ll find the names nestled in among such other greats like our favorite commercial spooks Comcast and T-Mobile, weapons makers Lockheed Martin, ALL the big tech stars including Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, Google, and Amazon, popular creeps Palantir who fill in the gaps where the others couldn’t, the Blackrock CEO, a pioneer of hydraulic fracturing (fracking), the world’s largest electric utility, some tobacco companies, and the Lutnicks. …And it’s not a long list.
I really appreciate your point of view, and I understand it completely. Please allow me to explain why I support this proposal. I’ve probably watched all the PGP videos from the very beginning, featuring Paul Brigner and Gary Weinstein. I even dubbed some of them into Russian. And judging by the number of views, not many people watched these videos, so I want to emphasize just how important they were. Here’s why I think so.
The first thing that’s easy to overlook is that if Zcash hadn’t gained traction in the U.S., we would likely have lost what is currently the only regulatory haven from which we can promote privacy to the world without fear of criminal prosecution. I showed clips from these videos to every person I spoke with who was convinced that Zcash would be banned. Once my opponents saw that people on suits were speaking highly of Zcash and privacy in general, they began to waver in their belief that Zcash would fail. You know, if it weren’t for those “suits”, I think ZEC would be worth less than $1 today because we would have run out of development funds a year ago. I think it’s worth bearing that in mind. The market doesn’t favour the underdogs.
I have previously mentioned on this forum that I myself came from a background of people in suits who drafted regulatory documents when I worked in the Russian government. So here I am today, despising fiat money and promoting the Zcash mission to everyone I meet. Please give this some thought.
I publicly support this proposal.
I would propose having a specific address where anyone from the project can contribute to funding this Golden ballroom dinner. If the 25k$ is met, it will be funded, if not funds should be send back.
In my opinion no community funds should be used for such extravagance. But hey, its a free world. Perhaps Zodl*,* Shielded Labs and other moon-boy whale pump and dumpers can help meet this funding objective.
I agree with this point of view 100% I have also watched all the PGP videos and support Paul Brigner, he inspired the interest, I have for policy and how important policy is for crypto and making sure all parties are informed the opportunities and potential threats in a privacy regulated market. I support this proposal the “suits” all not bad just got fitted myself last week picking up soon funding is very important for Zcash mission if I had 25k to spend ill pay for out my pocket without a doubt so everyone can be happy.
Thanks @artkor - you always have reasoned perspectives and use words well even when things are heated..
..based on my current knowledge…I cannot agree! Do you have a reason to think this?
I want to compare to other projects, the vast majority of which did not get the feared outcomes you’re projecting, but for now let’s keep it to ZEC.
ZF (ofc making Zebra, the soon to be only Zcash protocol full node) is fairly distributed. Some members of the teams mentioned above that are taking funding from these politically engaged forces, are also distributed across countries. Much of the ‘independent’ work done around Zcash is distributed.
The internet itself is distributed - that’s the main point. The Cypherpunk point.
Why does Zcash need a regulatory haven? Some companies or non-profits (… companies longing to be non-profits, and non-profits longing to be companies… the tax-concerned… billionaire political action committees…) need the permission of regulation… I don’t think Cypherpunks do. That’s one point.
Beyond that: what looks like a safe haven now could be a target and a lever to be used later. It seems so obvious to me… This is not a good long term idea. How stable and reliable does anyone actually think USA is? What is their promise of protection worth? Once making a deal, do you think the arrangement will remain unaltered? What if things change? What would that mean? If Zcash aligns strongly with one USA faction, what happens because of that later?
Like I said, in many important ways, the ship has already sailed. But we still have the name of the community itself which has not been offered as a tribute, yet.
Let the companies and their patrons worry about this! The protocol, and more, the community isn’t the organized, legal, regulated commercial interest*, is it?
A community (ZCG) endorsement of this event will say that the political, regulatory approach (in one influential nation) is not only valid, but important for the whole community, it will give the appearance of unanimous consent.
It’s bad public relations: the event type and location is gross, the title is wrong, and the reasoning behind it is questionable.** But also importantly this might be bad long term strategy.
I just don’t see it - is there a chain reaction you’re talking about @paulbrigner prevented after “not many people watched these videos”?
If there’s something I need to learn, please educate me. Why does the protocol the community relies on need or want the blessing of one country to operate?
I doubt you’ll change your mind, artkor, but I hope you do.
*Currently, ZODL is measuring out this distinction - how they make money vs how the whole chain operates. They’re asking for more money. But, notably, the linked proposal is not for ZCG but for coinholders, who can vote with their money… also without needing USA approval…
**If you need education, offer educational content with no food, no gifts, and no guest list. Offer the same thing to the VIPs as is offered to the rest of the world. How this proposal differs from that is the whole idea.
Thank you! Those are very good points that really resonate with me. To be honest, I don’t really have anything to say against them, but I’m not afraid of being wrong. It’s such a controversial issue; I’m probably just following my intuition.
I do not think there is clear right or wrong in this case. Having both arguments out in favor an against like this is valuable. I do understand why some think playing ball with the current white house administration is the right thing to do.
I myself agree with @aaal in questioning whether the long term impact will be positive when buttering up to one faction - who I doubt will remain in power in the long run. Therefore not using the ZCG as official backer would be lower risk. I do not think a crypto project should align itself politically one way or the other.
Thanks for being open-minded about this. The event is not affiliated with, endorsed by, or specifically aligned with the current administration. In fact, many, if not most, of the government participants who have attended PGP* meetings in the past have been career civil servants whose work continues across administrations. That continuity is part of the point: these conversations are about long-term policy understanding, not partisan alignment.
ZCG has voted to approve this proposal. Congratulations! The meeting minutes will include discussion on this vote.
ZCG requests that you provide monthly updates via the forum in this thread.
Please lookout for a Forum DM from FPF with important grant information. Thanks.
Thank you ZCG! Updates will follow.
It’s so gross that ZCG is funding and attaching their name to political lobbying efforts in the United States, with efforts led by professional communicators working for Republican mega donor billionaires.
@artkor I noted you were the deciding vote, and the only ZCG member who engaged with me here. You said I had good arguments, but voted for this anyway. I’m disappointed.
@decentralistdan let themselves be partially swayed by the fact they’d sponsored another event earlier, and didn’t notice or find the distinction of a VIP event to be important.
@GGuy just said Paul’s work is good so fund it.
@hanh was thinking more clearly:
I don’t think the funds should be used to sponsor events that are for convincing authorities to change their opinion on privacy. If it was a free event I think my position would be different. I think the principle is that we should not use ZCG funds for this purpose.
@zerodartz also said it wasn’t the right fit for ZCG.
For the broader community, it’s also very sad that my pointing this out garnered such little support or even engagement in discourse. These boundaries now being passed won’t be reversed now that the precedent has been set. Where are the super awesome champions of autonomy now? The ones not already on the same mega-bucks payroll, I mean…
Welcome then, community, to your corporate-American-billionaire privacy coin system and lobby. Now with community endorsement and support.
Hi! This is one of the few decisions where the votes were split evenly. I was fully aware that someone would be disappointed either way, but I made this choice. When I was deciding where to move all my Bitcoin in 2019, the choice came down to Monero and Zcash. I felt that I was more in favor of the smooth integration of cryptocurrencies into the existing system and less in favor of crypto-anarchy in a chaotic direction, so I chose Zcash. I mean, I didn’t go back on my initial view by voting this way.
