# Kidnappings; are we ready? **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [May 13, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223 "2025-05-13T16:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/1 "2025-05-13T16:36:44Z")
> ECC, ZF and Shielded Labs are all entirely composed of KYC’d people. Do we think this will age well? ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/2 "2025-05-13T16:42:01Z")
I’m not a fan of KYC but this is a bit much. I’m not a fan of the extreme fear mongering. We all know there are bad folks in the world, thanks for reminder. I think we should focus on the good, unless your goal is to scare everyone away… 💡 ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/3 "2025-05-13T16:57:24Z")
Third time this happens in France, in 2025. Extreme fear mongering? I don’t think so. We should have this conversation. > [@dismad](#): > > unless your goal is to scare everyone away… 💡 Think about it for a sec, and reverse the logic you’ve just expressed. Isn’t it potentially scary to participate to Zcash activities (governance, etc) given there’s hardly any place for someone not comfortable with disclosing their identity at any point? I know it’s _theoretically_ possible, but if there’s really nobody doing it, maybe it’s not _realistically_ doable. I think we should discuss anything we can do to protect people involved in the project, including suggesting to let go of legal identities. And we should obviously also be more welcoming and encouraging of anon identities. ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:05pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/4 "2025-05-13T17:05:12Z")
> [@outgoing.doze](#): > > We should have this conversation If you cant see how this is socially awkard then I don’t know what to say. You must be a hit at the partys 😅 > [@outgoing.doze](#): > > Isn’t it potentially scary to participate to Zcash activities (governance, etc) given there’s hardly any place for someone not comfortable with disclosing their identity at any point? Pointing out how the world is fucked up doesn’t make folks want to particate in _any_ governance let alone an all anon one. [https://media1.tenor.com/m/Pfz2r2r678wAAAAC/the-simpsons-bart-simpson.gif(image larger than 4 MB)](https://media1.tenor.com/m/Pfz2r2r678wAAAAC/the-simpsons-bart-simpson.gif) ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/5 "2025-05-13T17:24:31Z")
> [@dismad](#): > > If you cant see how this is socially awkard Sorry, I didn’t realize we shouldn’t talk about socially awkward topics, even if they are extremely relevant. Let’s agree to disagree and leave this post for people wanting to express what we could do to decrease the chances of contributors to the project being negatively affected by things such as kidnappings if you don’t mind. Or is it going to be like unified addresses and we’re going to wait until someone gets doxed and we publicly shout _oh wow emergency fix release_. Only it wouldn’t work here, it’s something to think about way ahead of time. ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/6 "2025-05-13T17:33:08Z")
> [@outgoing.doze](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t realize we shouldn’t talk about socially awkward topics, even if they are extremely relevant. You are talking and _zero_ folks are listening. Much effective, very wow. > [@outgoing.doze](#): > > Let’s agree to disagree and leave this post for people wanting to express what we could do to decrease the chances of contributors to the project being negatively affected by things such as kidnappings if you don’t mind. Its going to accomplish one thing: less particaption. Good job! > [@outgoing.doze](#): > > Or is it going to be like unified addresses and we’re going to wait until someone gets doxed and we publicly shout _oh wow emergency fix release_. I pointed out the UA issue long ago, it is a _Education_ problem. Folks `can-not-wait` for ECC, or any other group/person to do the correct thing, because they have other priorites or it would have been fixed by now. ![Screenshot_2025-05-13_10-42-11](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/original/3X/1/f/1f1455620b35409b7de0e24719368a7be5150125.png) notice the date ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/7 "2025-05-13T17:44:10Z")
> [@dismad](#): > > You are talking and _zero_ folks are listening. Much effective, very wow. Good luck substantiating this, and if you can’t, consider not doing it next time. > [@dismad](#): > > Its going to accomplish one thing: less particaption. Good job! Good luck substantiating this, and if you can’t, consider not doing it next time. Please respect the CoC and let this thread be if you have nothing constructive to say here. ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/8 "2025-05-13T17:44:56Z")
> [@outgoing.doze](#): > > Please respect the CoC and let this thread be if you have nothing constructive to say here. This is funny coming from you. I will 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Milton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/milton/32/21375_2.png) [@Milton](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Milton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 5:50pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/9 "2025-05-13T17:50:01Z")
I agree this is a very important topic. One thing I have noticed is that all the incidents I have heard about happened in Europe. That is somewhat surprising since my impression is that the US has more crypto rich people than Europe, yet I haven’t heard about any such incidents in the US. France seems to be particularly bad, and I am pretty sure that this is organized crime. I think it would be an interesting discussion as to why this is more prevalent in Europe than the US. One reason might be that there is no federal police force in the EU, making it easier to escape by crossing national borders. Anyway, the most obvious precaution is to be anon as you suggest, but for KYC’d people it is imo to stay away from Europe, or at least not announce that you are going there. I don’t think Zcon should be hosted in Europe any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 6:06pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/10 "2025-05-13T18:06:25Z")
> [@Milton](#): > > but for KYC’d people it is imo to stay away from Europe I think it follows crypto adoption and once that’s unlocked, kidnappings can happens to public figures (even lesser publicly known) where law enforcement is seen as weak. There’s a lot not to like about the US, but I can’t imagine it would be a good idea to kidnap someone there, it’d be a pretty lethal idea. Poorer countries all over the world will likely become more and more affected however. I actually expect Europe to positively adjust to this over the medium term. This is just the beginning and we should all individually prepare for such events; protect our contributors, and guide our users in understanding not just how to cryptographically protect themselves using our apps, but also exactly how to secure their finances with Zcash at the center. We have too much resources centered around code development and too little towards education and broad discussions around privacy. Those would be very beneficial and could attract more privacy-minded people to the project, even if they are not into crypto. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/shawn/32/187_2.png) [@Shawn](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Shawn)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/11 "2025-05-13T18:46:34Z")
The more public members of the Zcash community like Zooko, Josh, Jason, etc.. certainly need to be careful with their personal security but they don’t necessarily have the private keys to a large crypto exchanges coffers like in the OP post, so theoretically the incentives are less. Good personal OPSEC is always important. Reminded me of this old XKCD comic ![security](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/original/3X/e/7/e7b38505d2a0d9c74db2cf18c0e80b43bfa84e5f.png) ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 7:14pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/12 "2025-05-13T19:14:38Z")
> [@Shawn](#): > > Zooko, Josh, Jason, etc.. certainly need to be careful with their personal security but they don’t necessarily have the private keys to a large crypto exchanges coffers like in the OP post, so theoretically the incentives are less. I think it’s the opposite, here’s why: The kidnapping of a prominent Ledger employee has immediately unleashed a very unusually large police force, because (I would argue) Ledger is important for France, for its reputation, for its tax revenues. The most recent kidnapping also affected the leader of a French company, and immediately thereafter, a strong public message from the CEO of Ledger. Individuals “like Zooko, Josh, Jason, etc..” with known (expected to be, and expectation matters more than reality here) large holdings are actually less risky targets for kidnappers because the state would not have the same type of incentive to react as quickly and forcefully. ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 7:38pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/13 "2025-05-13T19:38:44Z")
Bingo: > **[Organized Crime Shows High Level of Professionalization, Low Level of Crypto...](https://www.chainalysis.com/blog/organized-crime-crypto/#:~:text=Targeted%20attacks,we%20had%2C)** > > Traditional organized crime groups — including cartels, wildlife traffickers, IPTV pirates, and even violent criminals — are increasingly adopting crypto, using a structured division of labor, intelligence gathering, and laundering operations. > **Targeted attacks on high-net-worth individuals:** Victims are specifically chosen because their wealth is public knowledge. “In one case we had, the victim was taken hostage at his place of work, and the attackers knew how much crypto he owned and where his children were. These details were used to coerce him into transferring the funds.” As I said. ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/14 "2025-05-13T19:59:49Z")
> Do I need to say more. I’m no bestie with @zancas either, but I think his approach of the old school Volvo is not only tremendously more inspiring, but also a lot safer on the matter discussed here. Likewise with ZF, can’t extract much details, wealth or otherwise; good. ECC? I understand @joshs is being watched by LE because of previous threats, and I think it’s a great thing because he’s very front and center… ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 8:07pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/15 "2025-05-13T20:07:24Z")
> [@Milton](#): > > That is somewhat surprising since my impression is that the US has more crypto rich people than Europe, yet I haven’t heard about any such incidents in the US There we go: [Florida teens accused of kidnapping crypto investor and stealing $4M](https://cryptobriefing.com/florida-crypto-theft-case/#:~:text=Teens%20accused,FBI%20involvement). ---
**Author:** ![Milton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/milton/32/21375_2.png) [@Milton](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Milton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/16 "2025-05-13T21:00:02Z")
Did some digging and found [a list of all known physical crypto attacks](https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks?tab=readme-ov-file). Seems to have really picked up steam since 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Milton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/milton/32/21375_2.png) [@Milton](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Milton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2025, 10:03pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/17 "2025-05-13T22:03:59Z")
![crypto crime](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/original/3X/5/4/5478c1a78320ccfbcc40f556a550bfcc42d578d2.png) Got interested so I plotted the number of physical crypto attacks by state/country. Seems to be pretty equal between USA and EU actually. ---
**Author:** ![gigantes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4bbf92/32.png) [@gigantes](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/gigantes)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2025, 7:05pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/18 "2025-05-14T19:05:18Z")
Strange how this keeps happening in France, a country notoriously known to be in a very acute fiscal crisis and suffering of capital flight. Probably all just an improbable coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![zerodartz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/zerodartz/32/26722_2.png) [@zerodartz](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/zerodartz)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/19 "2025-05-15T16:33:24Z")
so some Coinbase users KYC data leaked > this is not the first and wont be the last hack/leak KYC is dangerous for anyone holding or trading large enough amounts for criminals. DEXs fix this, or some sort of ZK KYC so your data never leaves your device. ---
**Author:** ![outgoing.doze](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/outgoing.doze/32/37355_2.png) [@outgoing.doze](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/outgoing.doze)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223/20 "2025-05-15T16:48:01Z")
There are so many ways to get doxed, it’s scary. I wish our project would be a beacon of light in the privacy space, not just one in the cryptography.dev sphere. We really need an anon counterpart to ECC, ZF & Shielded Labs. Ideally one that would focus on privacy, UX and governance. I think it will happen in due time and I’ll be there for it, but with that being said, for now it’s probably better to have the back of Shielded Labs that is just getting started. [Next page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/kidnappings-are-we-ready/51223.md?page=2)