# Leap frogging zaddr **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [May 20, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550 "2020-05-20T06:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/328 "2021-01-03T21:58:50Z")
> [@hloo](#): > > a large number of z2z transactions Are you saying banning sending to t-addr may not increase z2z transactions? But it won’t decrease right? Those users who do z2z keep doing the same. ---
**Author:** ![hloo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/hloo/32/4096_2.png) [@hloo](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/hloo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/329 "2021-01-03T22:11:42Z")
For example, if the number of users who purely use z2z stays constant, but you lose the users who use a mix of z2z and non-z2z, then you would have been better off keeping non-z2z **(as far as the size of of the z2z anonymity set goes)**. I’m not predicting that would actually happen, but the thought experiment is useful for considering various outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/330 "2021-01-03T23:15:52Z")
> [@hloo](#): > > but you lose the users who use a mix of z2z and non-z2z You also gain users who will use z2z because all transactions are shielding or shielded! ---
**Author:** ![covfefe](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/covfefe/32/26692_2.png) [@covfefe](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/covfefe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/331 "2021-01-03T23:21:28Z")
I think this would have a more positive impact on Zcash usage, there are IMHO a large number of potential users that don’t/won’t use Zcash because of t addresses. What I would like to see is majority consensus/agreement that t addresses must go (at some point), and a commitment that that will happen (at some point in the future). ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/332 "2021-01-04T04:27:26Z")
Before we discuss what to do, let’s agree on what our principles are in @secparam’s thread. ---
**Author:** ![tokidoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@tokidoki](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/tokidoki)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 4:41am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/333 "2021-01-04T04:41:47Z")
Do you think we should keep using the crutches forever? Many in this thread have been very clear: > [@anon16456014](#): > > But this chain, called `Zcash` , is all about privacy and t-addresses are a thorn (crutches) which we need to agree to remove at some point. Or if **we agree to keep them forever, then be open and clear about our privacy narrative.** Do you, @amiller, think that t-address should be forever kept in the Zcash protocol? I need to stress this point (and I don’t want this to be seen as litmus test): I do not think that Zcash should keep t-address indefinitely. I also do not think we should remove it today. It is okay if the community decides to keep t-address indefinitely and no one can force anyone to not use t-address. ---
**Author:** ![amiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/amiller/32/10_2.png) [@amiller](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/amiller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 5:50am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/334 "2021-01-04T05:50:32Z")
> [@tokidoki](#): > > Do you, @amiller, think that t-address should be forever kept in the Zcash protocol? On balance l think committing and planning to gradually discourage t-addr will pay off as a forcing function, incentive, and narrative reset. But this a prediction about a factual outcome, not an end goal in itself… The end goal in itself is increased adoption and usage of full privacy z-addr. The [“difficulty bomb” in Ethereum](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/difficulty-bomb.asp) is also a good analogy and helped set the pace for their move to proof of stake, even though it’s mainly symbolic (and in fact the deadline did get extended back a bit) ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 6:44am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/335 "2021-01-04T06:44:59Z")
what’s the ideal end state if we were to discourage t-addr? @amiller ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 7:01am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/336 "2021-01-04T07:01:22Z")
There are ton of users who feel Zcash is not private: > I don’t think they are FUD-ing, they seem to genuinely believe that (there are lots of examples I could find online). Fact is you can store your ZEC in shielded pool & stay private. this is one such example where t-addr & percent or number of transparent transactions on Zcash that does more damage to adoption we want. > “gradually” discouraging t-addr may be one solution but I’m afraid that might not change typical user perspective about Zcash, that have larger impact on eventual adoption & anonymity set. ---
**Author:** ![tokidoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@tokidoki](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/tokidoki)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 7:15am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/337 "2021-01-04T07:15:19Z")
Let’s focus on making sure shielded address has the best crypto UX. Hardware wallet, block explorer (with viewing key & payment disclosure), and payment rails (e.g. Nighthawk + Flexa) are three things that I will be glad supporting. ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 7:20am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/338 "2021-01-04T07:20:56Z")
Until recently, we all thought z2z offered impeccable privacy (that’s advertised everywhere). Now we are saying you shouldn’t use z-addr as passthrough for maximum privacy (sometimes z2z tx might not be private if you had just moved from t-addr). Moneyknowledge0 z2z experiment proved that: > So, at this point, it should be clear t-addr has no place in Zcash if we want users to trust Zcash & use privately. We can’t keep changing the narrative. KEEP SIMPLE & STAY PRIVATE. > ---
**Author:** ![Anton1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Anton1](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Anton1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 7:28am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/339 "2021-01-04T07:28:46Z")
It seems that everyone has already come to the conclusion that T addresses need to be removed someday, there is no need to prove anything else, what’s next? ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 7:53am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/340 "2021-01-04T07:53:05Z")
Are you asking for roadmap? there are few ideas floating around > > > Documenting Zcash 📄🛡 @DocumentingZEC ---
**Author:** ![den](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@den](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/den)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 8:09am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/341 "2021-01-04T08:09:46Z")
The issue is also that for many, anonymous or private is the same. And that seems to be even more complicated to solve. The post you’re quoting is saying anonymous, not private. ---
**Author:** ![Anton1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Anton1](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Anton1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/342 "2021-01-04T08:20:32Z")
How can I achieve this, what are you talking about, well, we’ve figured out what needs to be done (for example), what’s next? ---
**Author:** ![tromp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/tromp/32/522_2.png) [@tromp](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/tromp)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/343 "2021-01-04T16:12:52Z")
My viewpoints: Q: Should Zcash get rid of t-addresses? A: Absolutely. There should be no lasting use for them, with the possibility to selectively disclose information about z-addresses. Having two types of addresses is a major source of complexity, and complexity is the enemy of verification. Q: When? A: Planning should start once z2z txs become more common than non-z2z ones, and should hopefully take effect within 2 years after that. Q: How to vastly increase z2z use? A: By gradually increasing the cost of non-z2z use through fees, while reducing friction on z2z use, particularly in wallets. The next network upgrade should incorporate a fee increase schedule, resulting in a very substantial cost of non-z2z txs within 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![secparam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/secparam/32/17461_2.png) [@secparam](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/secparam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/345 "2021-01-04T22:48:09Z")
I made a thread with a proposal in it. Didn’t want to derail this one with more proposals. We still need everyone to agree on the principle that taddrs should go away eventually. As to the question of how, please look at: > [@A modest proposal: squeeze out taddrs](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/a-modest-proposal-squeeze-out-taddrs/38125): > > We all want shielded usage to increase. And transparent transactions are a philosophical contradiction for Zcash. Remember, you can always disclose the contents of a private transaction, even on chain. Just the default is private. There is a use for transparency on zcash , but there is no long term use for Bitcoin style transparent tx’s which are public by default. Defaults matter and as a protocol, Zcash doesn’t have privacy by default until they are gone. We can’t force shielded adoption by … ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2021, 6:36am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/346 "2021-01-05T06:36:48Z")
Now Zcash is not even a privacy coin (stance Dash recently took). 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️ Privacy is the main selling point of Zcash, it is not a feature, Zcash is not a general purpose blockchain. Zooko gives too much love for t-addr & its features vs z-addr (not sure why). > On z.cash: We literally advertise Zcash as “Zcash is a privacy-protecting, digital currency built on strong science.” ALSO Future of money is digital, decentralized and private. ---
**Author:** ![dontbeevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@dontbeevil](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dontbeevil)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2021, 6:49am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/347 "2021-01-05T06:49:38Z")
@daira: Is Zcash scalable with t-addr? ---
**Author:** ![tokidoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@tokidoki](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/tokidoki)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2021, 9:05am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550/348 "2021-01-05T09:05:11Z")
Welp. > [@zooko](#): > > I say that Zcash isn’t a privacy coin. I mean, if there is any one word that should be associated with “Zcash”, it’s “Privacy”. I don’t know if this is a part of regulatory strategy but this is certainly a very bad marketing move to make. > Zcash is privacy coin Am I in the wrong community all this time? [Previous page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550.md?page=16) [Next page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/leap-frogging-zaddr/36550.md?page=18)