# Let’s talk about ASIC mining **URL:** \ **Category:** Mining\ **Created:** [February 24, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353 "2018-02-24T23:15:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/618 "2018-05-02T01:25:01Z")
The link was meant to provide some definition of the differences between hard, soft, user activated forks etc, and if thats off topic then I apologize Edit- and to answer your questions, this is the best I could find, according to this [Why Equihash? - Electric Coin Company](https://blog.z.cash/why-equihash/) "Equihash is a memory-oriented Proof-of-Work, which means how much mining you can do is mostly determined by how much RAM you have. We think it is unlikely that anyone will be able to build cost-effective custom hardware (ASICs) for mining in the foreseeable future. We also think it is unlikely that there will be any major optimizations of Equihash which would give the miners who know the optimization an advantage" “Nevertheless, we can’t know for certain that Equihash is safe against these issues, and we may change the Proof-of-Work again, if we find some flaw in Equihash or if we find another Proof-of-Work algorithm which offers higher assurance.” Nothing about Asic resistance other than the foreseeable future Changing if it offers higher assurance ( which I assume means cryptographically) Equihash has done good so far, parameters changing and when idk ---
**Author:** ![bitcartel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/bitcartel/32/8558_2.png) [@bitcartel](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/bitcartel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/619 "2018-05-02T02:35:11Z")
A few more links you might find interesting: > Equihash is a Proof-of-Work algorithm devised by Dmitry Khovratovich and Alex Biryukov. It relies on RAM as the bottleneck resource for generating proofs and we believe this makes it ASIC resistant > [https://blog.z.cash/new-alpha-release-equihash-and-founders-reward/](https://blog.z.cash/new-alpha-release-equihash-and-founders-reward/) > One of the reasons we chose Equihash is for the ASIC-resistant properties which in theory make the network more accessible to “small” miners who are extremely valuable for providing a market balance to other miners with significantly more capabilities. > [User Expectations at Sprout Pt. 1: Slow-Start Mining & Mining Ecosystem - Electric Coin Company](https://blog.z.cash/slow-start-and-mining-ecosystem/) > We are currently using Equihash as the proof-of-work for block mining in Zcash…The algorithm is currently not economically implementable in ASIC. > [Learn Zcash - Z.Cash](https://z.cash/support/faq.html#mining-algorithm) > Mining should be available to everyone, regardless of their access to specialized hardware; anyone should be able to use a computer to “mine” by using open source software, and add more transactions to the Zcash ledger to possibly get Zcash coins in return for their effort. > [https://zcashminers.org/](https://zcashminers.org/) (Zcash sponsored equihash competition) > It attempts to address the problem of mining centralization by use of the Equihash memory-hard proof-of-work algorithm. > [https://github.com/zcash/zips/blob/master/protocol/protocol.pdf](https://github.com/zcash/zips/blob/master/protocol/protocol.pdf) (Zcash protocol spec, Abstract) ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/620 "2018-05-02T04:05:07Z")
I’m going to read those, but it’s late, and I know I go off on tangents sometime, I just try to look at things from different viewpoints (like this) Lets personify the hypothetical Asic zcash situation (real situation for other coins, probably attribute this grace period to equihash), its not a perfect equation (may not really personification but whatever) Let’s say zcash is a Small Town store and Asics are Walmart who just showed up As it stands like that, its only a matter of time before walmart swallows you up, forget it, you have zero chance So what do ya do? You can hard fork by quitting and moving to where walmart isnt…yet You can soft fork by doing business through them, but soon they grow tired of your inefficient cost and swallow you up The daisy-chain is freaky because its real equivalent may not exist This is where you change the rules so no matter what, you and walmart do exactly the same The more walmart business, the exact same amount zcash business, walmart weighs itself down while propelling zcash forward for a much longer more prosperous time than the other 2 Imagine the stores are right next to each other and no one can check out from one until somebody is checked out from the other, makes business for Walmart insanely difficult and zcash business very very easy (in order to keep the block target time) I guess implementing this protocol change before asics would be like constructing the building Walmart will eventually move into and have zcash doing business in both prior to ---
**Author:** ![techtot](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/techtot/32/9464_2.png) [@techtot](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/techtot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/621 "2018-05-02T15:13:57Z")
So just to be a clear, is fork considered hard anytime it is not backwards compatible? Compared to a soft fork which is compatible with existing nodes? Therefore a POW algorithm change is always a hard fork? With that said, does the scope of an algo change only involve mining software and the core POW code ? Don’t other endpoints (wallets, block explorers,etc) only interact with the results of this core process? ---
**Author:** ![hosseamin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@hosseamin](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/hosseamin)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/622 "2018-05-02T15:50:32Z")
Do you think change of parameters is enough? I think there’s need for UN-predictable change. ---
**Author:** ![techtot](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/techtot/32/9464_2.png) [@techtot](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/techtot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/623 "2018-05-02T16:27:22Z")
Does the scope of an algorithm change only involve mining software and the POW algorithm node code? Are other endpoints (wallets, block explorers,etc) not affected and not require modification? I am just trying to understand the scope of an algo change… ---
**Author:** ![daira](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/daira/32/43253_2.png) [@daira](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/daira)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/624 "2018-05-02T16:43:14Z")
Yes that’s correct, only mining code, zcashd, and any code that verifies the PoW on its own without using zcashd. ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/625 "2018-05-02T17:40:25Z")
> **[User Expectations at Sprout Pt. 1: Slow-Start Mining & Mining Ecosystem -...](https://electriccoin.co/blog/slow-start-and-mining-ecosystem/)** > > Zcash Sprout represents the beginning of a global ecosystem focused on user privacy and secure consensus requiring the growing support \[…\] “While the lasting effect of ASIC resistance is, at least at this stage, unpredictable, the more people participating in mining, the stronger the network will be against any future growing disparity and centralization in mining power. We fully anticipate a variety of mining abilities but hope for an improvement in previously implemented protocols such that the “small” miners can keep the “big” miners in check by experimenting early on in Sprout and contributing in the name of the network and community rather than the profit-driven motives of the larger miners.” (Lil zcash big walmart?) > **[Frequently Asked Questions - Zcash](https://z.cash/support/faq/)** > > Find answers to important questions about Zcash, how it differs from other cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, transaction types, mining, upgrades, community and more. “Yes, since launch, Zcash has been based on proof-of-work. Maybe the community will choose to change it to proof-of-stake or something someday. We cannot predict what the community or communities will ultimately decide about such things but are very much open to improvement and evolution.” “The algorithm is currently not economically implementable in ASIC. We’re still evaluating whether we think it will resist custom hardware (“ASIC”) implementation long-term.” > Gonna need time to read through, fantastic ---
**Author:** ![bitcartel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/bitcartel/32/8558_2.png) [@bitcartel](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/bitcartel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/626 "2018-05-02T23:05:34Z")
It would be great if folk here could read the Zcash Foundation ballot on ASIC resistance and share thoughts on the ticket: [Create asicresistance\_ballot.md · amiller/Elections@d082057 · GitHub](https://github.com/amiller/Elections/commit/d0820571a359f682e519d89375dc162570361cd2) There are over 600 comments on this thread, but the ballot has yet to receive a single comment from the community (other than comments from Zcashco folk). If you’re not comfortable using Github or prefer other platforms, please let @acityinohio know, so that the Foundation is better able to capture the community’s voice. ---
**Author:** ![str4d](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/str4d/32/64_2.png) [@str4d](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/str4d)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/627 "2018-05-02T23:13:52Z")
The pull request to comment on for the above ballot is here: > > > This is a very quick and rough ballot proposal based on the "Let's talk about AS…IC Mining" forum thread. It reflects just my own personal effort, and has not been validated by other members of the Zcash Foundation, the community, or the Zcash Company. It's put up here for review and to jumpstart the conversation about what role the Foundation could play and how our ballot process can help the discussion. I invite folks from the community to continue discussing this here and in the forum! > > \*Edit: putting full ballot proposal here for readability from the election links.\* > > \# Ballot Proposal: ASIC Resistance as a value and priority for the Foundation > > Proposed ballot entry: > > \`\`\` > The Zcash community wishes to preserve ASIC resistance, discouraging the use of ASIC mining equipment in favor of GPU mining equipment. The Zcash Foundation should therefore adopt this as a priority. > > \- Agree > \- Disagree > \`\`\` > > \## Background > > ASIC mining has recently emerged as an widely-discussed issue in several cryptocurrencies, including Zcash but also Monero and Ethereum. Bitcoin mining has been well-known to be dominated by dedicated ASICs, since SHA256 is ASIC-friendly. Zcash's proof-of-work mining puzzle is based on a technology, Equihash, which is intended to be ASIC-resistant but GPU-friendly. Although Monero and Ethereum also feature (different) ASIC-resistant proof-of-work puzzles, there appear to be effective ASICs in use or on the Horizon. To avoid ASICs, \[Monero has recently hardforked\](https://cointelegraph.com/news/monero-hard-fork-appears-successful-as-devs-shun-bitmains-asic-miners) to a new proof-of-work puzzle, while Ethereum is developing a proof-of-stake alternative. A discussion on ASIC resistance can be found here: \[forum.z.cash\](https://forum.z.cash/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353). > > Zooko (the chief of Zcash Company) has challenged the framing of this question, arguing that we do not know if ASIC resistance actually achieves decentralization. \[(1)\](http://www.crypto-news.in/news/alt-coins/zcash-founder-zooko-not-interested-asic-resistance/) \[(2)\](https://forum.z.cash/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/151) As such, this is an important topic to include in the ballot to the Community Approval Panel, since it may be a point of disagreement between the Zcash Company and the broader community. > > \## Scope of this proposal > > This scope of this proposal is left deliberately vague, and does not prescribe a particular action for the Foundation to take. Nor does the outcome indicate a particular technical approach in response. If this proposal is accepted, the Foundation will adopt this as a priority and come up with an action plan to outline in a blogpost. > > Possibile responses include: > \- allocating resources to investigate technical options (how feasible are ASICs for equihash? Would a parameter change be sufficient? What other proof of work puzzles would fare better?) > \- lobbying the Zcash Company to prioritize ASIC resistance in their roadmap > \- hiring engineering staff to contribute an implementation of the above ---
**Author:** ![phakov](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/phakov/32/5359_2.png) [@phakov](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/phakov)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/628 "2018-05-02T23:26:00Z")
I hope I replied in the right place. Here is is: _Since the promise of ASIC resistance was made at the beginning, this lowly ZCash user and miner expects you folks to keep your word. Just do what you promised. All this talk is just noise obfuscating things._ Using Github is a great way to keep out a “regular user”. How about an informal poll on Survey Monkey? ---
**Author:** ![bitcartel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/bitcartel/32/8558_2.png) [@bitcartel](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/bitcartel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/629 "2018-05-02T23:36:19Z")
Oh, I copied the ballot URL directly from @amiller’s [original post](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/484) which points to the commit for people to comment on… …whereas the URL you posted is for the conversation tab of the pull request. This is an example of why Github may not be the best platform for community discussion. ---
**Author:** ![garethtdavies](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/garethtdavies/32/210_2.png) [@garethtdavies](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/garethtdavies)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/630 "2018-05-02T23:47:02Z")
> [@bitcartel](#): > > This is an example of why Github may not be the best platform for community discussion. I think this is one thing we can all agree on 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/631 "2018-05-02T23:56:16Z")
This IS off topic but I get the feeling as though were working through the stages of mouning here, lotta greif and denial which is understandable I guess Wash the hate out of your eyes and prove an asic resistance hard fork is better instead of diverting the subject Edit- rushing people off to vote on something that aligns with an opinion of yours? Tisk ---
**Author:** ![bitcartel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/bitcartel/32/8558_2.png) [@bitcartel](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/bitcartel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/632 "2018-05-03T00:20:41Z")
> [@Autotunafish](#): > > Wash the hate out of your eyes and prove an asic resistance hard fork is better instead of diverting the subject > > Edit- rushing people off to vote on something that aligns with an opinion of yours? Tisk I didn’t create the ballot, the Zcash foundation did. Also I don’t even know who is eligible to vote on the ballot, but this is a good time for people to share their thoughts with the foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/633 "2018-05-03T00:28:08Z")
I didn’t say you created it, im saying we need proof its the right vote If i felt it was, i would debate for it as intensely But for me too much information points against ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/634 "2018-05-03T00:29:58Z")
All community members will be eligible to vote yea/nea After that the foundation board will approve with final vote, its on github, hang on Edit-[Elections/README.md at master · ZcashFoundation/Elections · GitHub](https://github.com/ZcashFoundation/Elections/blob/master/README.md) Edit2- so youre gonna have to prove it to them too and like i said if i felt the same, id be right at it, im dedicating alot of thought to this Edit- prove is a pretty strong word considering my idea is only theoretically sound so maybe present evidence to support is what should have been said Edit4- also my is a pretty strong word considering the idea spawned from Zooko’s Myriad mining suggestion way up earlier which I guess came from a zcash new hire in Singapore and he got it from who knows ---
**Author:** ![bitcartel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/bitcartel/32/8558_2.png) [@bitcartel](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/bitcartel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/635 "2018-05-03T01:14:01Z")
I don’t think any community member can just vote, you have to be on a panel first. From the link you posted: > While the Community Governance Panel—those casting votes—will be limited in number, any member of the public can open a Pull Request for a new ballot item [Elections/README.md at master · ZcashFoundation/Elections · GitHub](https://github.com/ZcashFoundation/Elections/blob/master/README.md) A foundation blog post says: > Around 200 members of the community will be selected to form what we’re calling a “Community Governance Panel.” Each of these members are in the process of being vetted by me and other members of the Foundation to broadly represent the Zcash ecosystem. > [Zcash Foundation – The Zcash Foundation is a 501(c)(3) public charity that builds financial privacy infrastructure for the public good](https://z.cash.foundation/blog/zcon0-and-community-governance/) ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/636 "2018-05-03T01:21:36Z")
Ok, my mistake, 20cha ---
**Author:** ![Autotunafish](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/autotunafish/32/7827_2.png) [@Autotunafish](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Autotunafish)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/637 "2018-05-03T01:48:32Z")
Lets try this and I dont know if it will mean anything, but im going to explain (as non biased as I can) your idea of asic resistance to you and then you explain the daisy-chain idea to me and then we’ll check to see if we missed anything At the very least I can reassess my position on it, I just feel as though I only have more metaphors for which to elaborate with In the next few days, i was planning on another summary anyway [Previous page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353.md?page=30) [Next page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353.md?page=32)