Let’s talk about ASIC mining

Actually there is nothing to compare as you wrote. It’s only a calculation for the Z9 mini, nothing else. With what to compare? What numbers?

If you want to compare it you have to make at least 2 calculations so someone can indeed compare something as you asked to do… Just with this, there is nothing to compare.

Or is this meant to be a response to Trololino’s POS calculations?

please think. those questions do not make sense if you compare to GPU.
gpu has a real 2yr warranty;
lifespan - there are people mining ok 5yrs+ at 100% fan speed;
gpu has value no matter what will happen with equihash;
gpu has multiple use in crypto and in rest of the world;
people producing this hardware seem not to stick their nose into everything;
distribution is already fairly spread over the planet and so on…
this is why gpu can not be compared to asic, which is about roi only.

it seems that you are alone who does not understand the point im trying to make.

so what are the benefits of asics again?
why exactly do we have to stick to them?

it’s asic thread. you have nice moves, seriously, dragging in third component (pos), comparing asics and gpus in such a way they look pretty similar… but you forget that your magic does not work on me :slight_smile:

fact is that ASICs are ~10 times worse than GPU’s in terms of accessibility, predictability, manipulation.
And I can see no benefits from decision to stick with ASIC network.

Fine, it’s an asic thread, true, but as long as you want to drive the time wheel back and talk about gpu in an asic thread as long should i be able to to drive the time wheel forward and talk about moving maybe from asics to pos (or similar) at some point.

Actually i’am pretty sure that if you didn’t have a gpu mining farm (i guess you have one, right?) you would even support the POS move. If i may ask, how big is the gpu mining farm, just out of curiousity?

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Ya know when (if) a decision comes for a protocol change that “profitability” will have almost nothing to do with it and defining an argument (reiterative mind you) for a change based solely on that is a waste of time (sorry)

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Agreed, 29 posts discussing PoS vs Mining have been moved to: Zooko talking about PoS

Try to keep this thread on the ASIC vs GPU debate for consistency. PoS vs Mining should go into that other thread.

Why? Even in the introducing post mentions POS (8 months ago). While than back the question had some logic to go or not to go with Asics it’s no more relevant at all as it happened allready.
The question now is where to go from here where we are, which in every case should include the option of POS or whatever, not?

Just from the introducing post and why i think that POS has it’s whole place exactly in this thread as well:

“ZcashCo engineers have recently been chatting about mining decentralization, including such ideas as changing the Equihash params, switching to a different PoW algorithm, making non-outsourceable PoW, switching to PoS, etc… My current position is that our mission is best served by improving the security, scalability, and usability of the product for end users, and that mining-decentralization is a struggle that is impossible to win in theory, and is long since lost in practice, and it is a distraction to worry too much about it. Instead I think we should design protocols which are censorship-resistant and user-protecting (and usable and scalable) even when there is only one miner in the world.”
https://chat.zcashcommunity.com/channel/zcash-dev?msg=nz8oEHyACF3CHQ6HH

So now over to the community.
How do you feel about ASIC mining?
Do you have any red lines?
How would you like to see the Zcash project evolve with respect to mining?
Is this a topic which the Zcash Foundation should take the lead on?

Seriously, i personally can’t see the logic why there should be several topics about the future of Zcash from where we are? Does it really make sense that each group discusses their own vision/ideas only with the own group of supporters? By now it’s not as simple as it was with choosing Asic or GPU, there are monthly more new options available and to see what fits best Zcash they should be discussed each to another, not?

If this topic here by now should be just a Wailing Wall so it be, no problem either…

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The point isn’t to dissuade conversation one way or another, it’s to keep the threads on the primary points that the threads are about. This thread is 99% GPU vs ASIC so throwing PoS into the mix is confusing.

The other thread is more in line with your point of “where should Zcash go from here?” PoS? PoW? Etc… as Zooko postulates about in the opening post and has been the primary discussion in that thread.

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Is there point in discussing GPU vs ASIC anymore. Zcash isnt going back to GPU mining unfortunately, they have made it very clear.

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Its nice you are trying to keep the stuff seperate, but alot of this thread has to do with mining in general.

Yes some people were talking about PoS, myself included, but it was to compare to ASIC mining, this thead is called Let’s talk about ASIC mining.

If we cant talk about other forms of mining in this ASIC thread, how can we compare them fairly? Yes some of the last few posts were discussing PoS mining, but it was in comparison and showing PoW ASIC mining vs PoS.

When we are comparing the PoS system to the PoW system AKA ASIC MINING, tell me how its off topic? Was it talking about PoS…yes, is there another thread about PoS, yes. Does that mean EVERYTHING about PoS should be in that ONE thread, no, not at all.

Just because someone has a post open already about a subject doesnt mean everything about that subject belongs in that other post.

How unfair is this. GPU vs ASIC ok, PoS vs ASIC not ok. Talking about PoS vs ASIC is just as important as GPU vs ASIC.

Just because you are easily confused, doesnt mean its not a beneficial discussion about ASICs. GPUs have been knocked out, some people are talking about other things now.

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Absolutly agree with @Lisfin .

If it can’t be discussed together in this thread than the next best option would be closing this thread and open a new thread “Future of ZEC mining Asic/GPU/POS/Other” where we again can discuss fair about this all not being divided in different groups on different topics…

In case there is 0 intention or interest by Zcash going POS in the next <24 months than of course a POS discussion compared to Asics doesn’t make any sense. Just say it and we all can stop talking about POS vs Asics.

First of all I’m not at all confused, so don’t try to imply that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Second of all you are making a leap that Zcash will never go back to GPUs which is not confirmed anywhere by Zcash Company nor Zcash Foundation. Simply because you have written off GPUs doesn’t mean that everyone has. There are still open Grant possibilities from the Zcash Foundation regarding funding ProgPOW which if it is presented as requested (tested and vetting) by the Zcash Foundation still has a possibility of being merged by Zcash Company.

As I said in my earlier post, this thread has been 90% about hardware comparisons and arguments pertaining to GPUs vs ASICs which some users may still be interested in discussing, and that’s what this thread is for.

This is exactly what the other thread is for, PoS vs PoW systems.

If you wish to discuss “other things now” than what this thread has primarily been about, thats fine too. Feel free to discuss further in that PoS thread or create a new one. The Code of Conduct specifically mentions that derailing topics is poor forum etiquette and should be avoided.

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@lisfin @boxalex It’s probably better to break out the PoS discussion into its own topic, especially if there is tabular data that can be updated, like List of all coins/projects on Equihash (Asic restistant/not resistant) so that it doesn’t get lost in this mega-thread.

The other thread is about PoS and nothing about ASIC mining or PoW. This thread is about ASIC mining. How can we talk about ASIC mining vs PoS if you force us into a PoS thread that has nothing to do about PoW or ASIC mining.

If we start talking about ASICs/PoW vs PoS in that thread…we would once again be derailing the topic by bringing up ASICs and PoW in that topic, that has nothing to do with them. So what post are we suppose to talk about it in? Now you have me confused…

The PoS conversations were in comparison of ASIC mining. Is this not the thread to talk about ASIC mining? Can we not mention other things that affect ASIC mining in this topic, or did I miss read the title and it says ASICs vs GPU? PoS is a valid argument against ASICs, can we not use that in this topic or discuss the pro and cons of the system because another thread already talks about it?

EDIT: Ok, guess you can just change the title of the other post to PoS vs PoW Discussion and now im wrong…

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I agree with @bitcartel the PoS vs PoW discussion deserves it’s own thread rather than being buried in this one.

So, if you wish to discuss PoS vs PoW (ASICs or GPU) then it goes in that other thread.

If you wish to discuss ASICs vs GPUs then this thread is more appropriate.

You changed the title of the other post to Zooko talking about PoS. PoS vs PoW Discussion, Might as well change this one to Let’s talk about ASIC mining vs GPUs only.

This is my opinion, but this a terrible way to moderate, forcing what you think the topic should be about, when clearly we were still talking about ASICs vs PoS. We were not even off topic. ASIC vs POS is a valid debate, just like GPU vs ASIC.

But you have the powers, you make the choice, I just want it to be known, I think you are overstepping a little bit right here. But I think you do a great job with alot of stuff so keep up the great work.

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Tabular Data is an argument and deserves it’s own thread, however, a fast made uncomplete list (i’am working on a better one) isn’t really something that gets updated or i would have made an independed topic about it like i did with the equihash coins.

I think we are at most 5 people that have readed ALL the posts in this thread, and just be sure, none other by now will go through 5000 posts, lol.

I still think the asic discussion is closely related as much to POS as to GPU and in my opinion comparing them, discussing and talking about them in a friendly fair manner shouldn’t be a big deal.

We are just dividing here groups and opinions and seperating them from each other in my opinion. One group will continue to discuss some asic issues here, the other on the other topic, no matter both should exchange ideas, comparisons, experience, whatever…

In these 5000 posts there have been so much unrelated things being discussed, be it RF, Monero, other coins, Bitcoin Gold, IPO’s, can’t even remember all unrelated stuff, lol. Damn, POS even fits into asic resistance.

Me personally isn’t going that far, but someone could argue that this splitting is an attempt to divide groups that are asking for a change and moving away from asics. In my opinion POS supporters and GPU anti-asic resistance supporters have more in common tha pro asic and pro gpu, but that’s just my opinion.

Not much we can do as active forum members, but this will leave a bad taste as it’s not a needed step at all and it’s the first time i’am not happy with a forum decision.

I’am getting confused, why was autotunafish’s post (re)moved to the POS discussion?

Here we go, a post about a new POW algorithm decreasing the asic advantage gets moved to the POS topic … where is the logic behind that? That’s what i call confusion now …

MTP - Zcoin’s New Proof-of-Work Algorithm

I’ve been participating in this thread from day one and have read just about every post, go back and read the first 4,000 posts and tell me what it’s primarily about, it’s ASICs vs GPUs and why one is better than the other. So I feel it’s appropriate to keep it on its primary topic.

Bitcartel (the creator of this thread) also felt that the PoS discussion should be broken away from the primary discussion in this thread and is the one who flagged it for Moderation.

If you wish to discuss more about Moderating Policies and Procedures there is a thread for that too.

Thanks

You are correct, I did move that post by mistake. I will move it back.