Ethereum is Ethereum and whatever Vitalik decides is based on their thoughts, minds and as long as it’s not decided what path exactly on POS they are going you don’t have a valid argument. My information is that he is targeting 1%-3% reward, no matter the stake you must hold.
But this doesn’t matter anyway, because i wrote: POS, maybe a lot altered, modified, combined, tweaked, whatever
I mentioned it bevor, i begun to test, check and try a lot of POS coins and actually some are really good in profit, some are just like you said, you never will get a reward actually. However, i have as well a POS wallet with a 500 USD stake where i get more POS rewards/day than mining the same coin with 15 L3 Asics per day as its currently a hybrid one.
And than again, you talk about profit distribution, i talk about wide spreading and making crypto “mining” available for everybody, not just a handfull profit oriented miners.
Additionally, making it more widespread would bring in fresh cash as well. So far we are just a closed community of miners/traders/speculators with getting daily about 100 more questionable coins/projects but with no wider spread. We are more or less stuck exactly do this total useless POW mining experiment that works great for Bitcoin but not for the others.
Only thing i agree with you that not every POS is profitable, but that’s something that can be tweaked and adjusted as i have seen absolute fair POS systems as well.
Actually, we don’t talk about perfect system, that works in a way as creator intends. We should look on something that is possible techically in decentralized system, where there may be unfair players. Surely PoW allows unfair play starting from 30% of hashrate, but it’s unpossible right now for ETH and XMR if you are not public player(pool). But it’s possible for ZEC with it’s hidden pool. So ZEC should choose another way - PoW or PoS. As we see coins like EOS were idealistic like you and now it’s being blamed for centralization. So if we want really decentralized network the only solution that can be used by dev would be Ethereum’s Casper. And as we see it has some disadvantages - huge stake. So we have no solution right now for PoS.
P.S Nor crypto stake nor ASIC can provide 60 fps in Witcher 3. So they are both useless for new adopter.
My parents don’t play Witcher 3, so they even less care about the 60fps and my 15year old daughter can’t put together a rig either neither setup the miner … If your crypto space is limited to gamers we are doomed by now allready.
It was a joke but with some sence: you can’t deny that your PC as well as PC of your parents has at least CPU. And the most profitable CPU coin is Monero. Do you understand now why I am so exicited about Monero and why botnets are smaller evil for me than ASICs?
I know it was a joke with some sense, hence the reason i answered exactly like this:
Just to give a clear picture about how more or less things are distributed, have in mind that i write this as an 48 year old european, as the picture in africa, asia and some other parts in the world is totally different:
me, familar with computers for about 28 years, and i still had problems to adapt in the beginning with mining
wife, has a laptop she never uses, uses only cell phone for absolutly everything, including internet
parents, no PC, no laptop, just cellphones. Use only easiest applications.
son, 23 years. has a laptop, 0 computer knowledge, yeah, i know it’s a shame. Uses mostly cell phone
daughter, 15 years, not interested in laptop/PC, only using cell phone for everything.
I guess in most families it’s like that or similar (europe). That’s not wide spreading. What’s left for poor countries.
I’am well aware that my thoughts will get huge resistance by Asics and GPU miners and it took awhile until i got to these conclusions. But than again, i’am well aware that without wider spread and making crypto available to everybody something must change and something is totally flawed. Actually this whole topic helped me a lot to realize how flawed the whole GPU and Asic mining POW issue is.
I’am as well aware that the POS issue is absolutly versus the “get rich fast” ideologie most miners have.
And about bot nets and smaller evil. Maybe for you in the current picture, not for me, either something is evil or it’s not evil. In my dictionary there is no less evil even less accepting anything evil. And especially about bot nets. You don’t realize how much harm these do the whole crypto space. Every guy that got infected with it and finds out that his device was used for crypto mining will associate it with something bad, no matter if he hears crypto monero or crypto bitcoin or crypto zcash. He won’t made any difference and while for you the asic is more evil for him crypto will be evil…
Its so interesting watching coin that promoted it self as ASIC resistant and even talk in first post why GPU mining is much better for decentralisation now talks totally opposite and even try with some fake examples to prove it.
Unknown pool probably just one ASIC manufacture now has 230 MH on Zcash…well that is better then 40 000 different miners on Fly pool.
I quit Zcash and sold all i mined since day 2 off Zcash egistance but i will still post here to laugh human nature … i install Zcash to many people who mined it…off course no one mine it now…they all shut down computers or turn to ETH.
I agree with the statement of cell phones spread. But the cell phone can’t run full node. Personally I started mining ZEC in November 2016 using GTX970 and in January 2017 I’ve already set up full node using WSL beta. And I think that it’s really important to motivate everyone setup the full node. And what is a better motivator than mining profits that would be safer. Also for PoS it’s better to have more full nodes. So yes: CPU-based spread is not completely fair, but it motivates users discover more about topic and we get less amount of much more educated community, which I think better than bigger amount of non-educated users, that are good target for hackers and “social engineers”.
P.S If you are interested in phone-based spreading look on Electroneum. It’s mobile wallet gives away some coins for being online and “mining” from fee on normal mining. But it’s more about distribution because phones don’t actually mine.
I feel betrayed by Zcash … I invested heavily, I disclosed, I used currency for international transfers transactions and now they do not think of us that we believe and invest.
Bitmain is a problem, just do not fill those who are blind with the money involved and look for arguments to justify the unjustifiable. Attempts to dominate Bitcoin, the influences, the lies and the monopoly of the ASICs are totally against what you propose the crypto-coins.
Also, note how the reputation of Bitcoin Gold that was never top of the list turned out to be well-regarded by the entire community in reacting against ASIC.
Not everything is calculus, not everything is money. Developers, listen to the community.
I have a bigger stake in Electroneum, no matter they forked away from Asics because i like their approach with the cell phone mining simulator and i can imagine that it’s one of the things that could be a break through in 2019 and help a lot for wide spreading. Means i follow closely the Electroneum approach as i didn’t sell a single Elecontroneum which i mined with my X3 than back.
I think we shouldn’t see POS as it’s right now, we see for example weekly how cell phones weekly advance for example and while right now they can not handle full nodes i could imagine that in 12 - 24 months it would eventually be possible, eventually with some cheap extra device, usb stick,whatever… just as an idea, not really reality related and researched at this point.
Ohhh, and i run the Electroneum cell phone miner out of curiousity, not due the 10 ETN it makes per day, it’s just interesting.
I’am pretty sure the first crypto project than manages to get mining through cell phones managed, or wide spread fair staking through POS/modified POS on cell phones will be the big winner in 2019.
And i’am pretty sure that the ethereum switch to POS will cause an “earth quake”, be it in mining profits, hashpower shiftings, projects following, whatever. I’am well aware that everybody here thinks my future POS vision is just nonsens, unsuitable and so on, but remember my post in latest 1 year Things change quickly in crypto!
I invested heavily
==> in your business, not Zcash
Developers, listen to the community
==> Actually i would agree too IF the community here would be well presented by from all layers involved in Zcash, including investors that invested millions, traders, holders, devs, supporters miners, but unfortunatly we are about 20 - 50 people here more or less actively discussing whatever matter, additionally only miners. That’s not a community that is fair represented and i wonder why the active Zcash community is that small actually.
Just in generally, me personally is absolutly versus Developers listening to a handfull community members. It’s ok to listen and to weight some arguments eventually, but that’s it. Communities forcing giving projects into a given direction never ends good for the project…
What about the fact that most ASICs themselves become obsolete paperweights worth less than a 560Ti in a few years? Case in point the Antminer S3, now makes $3/mo EVEN IF you have free power.
Something is very fishy with Zooko’s embrace of Bitmain when a simple change in Equihash parameters could render predatory Bitmain’s ASICs useless.
What about the fact that most ASICs themselves become obsolete paperweights
I don’t disagree, but keep in mind that desktop’s older than 7-10 years became a paperweights also. This is how it has been for years with all consumer hardware. What modern games can you run with a 560Ti on good settings?
If you buy an ASIC you are taking a risk. Mining is not without risks or continual change. It’s a competition.
Sure, PC components become obsolete in a matter of years, but ASICs frequently become obsolete in a matter of months.
That is a profound difference.
Some numbers: Every single Bitmain ASIC that is older than one month is now making less per day than a single GTX 1080 Ti, despite consuming at least 5 times the power, sounding like a vacuum cleaner, and having no resale value or utility outside of cryptocurrency.
ASIC mining is simply a wealth transfer from a decentralized community of computer enthusiasts to a handful of secretive Chinese companies.
I absolutly agree with this one. The price of competition i guess. The more competition there is on the Asic market the faster they get obsolete.
First i thought it might be that the market/demand isn’t just enough matured yet to take all these Asics, but i admit that even if the market was more matured it would be the same, just with 1-2 months of delay until again enough asic producers made enough units.
This isn’t really a matter of competition. Even if there were only one ASIC manufacturer, they could still make it so that all of the publicly available hardware is unprofitable or borderline profitable, while the company and their insider friends mine on the latest hardware that is many times more efficient.
The real issue is with proof of work algorithms that lack memory hardness.
With memory hardness, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to create new hardware that is orders of magnitude more efficient than publicly available hardware.
The simple solution to this is to change the Equihash parameters to require more memory.
Maybe the simplest, but not the best. Both, Asics and GPU’s have so many drawbacks and flaws that it doesn’t even matter as it would be just deciding of the less useless thing in favour a given group and handfull of miners. POS is the best Zcash should research, prepare, develope with all possible resources instead of wasting resources on the eventually less evil. POW is too flawed by now… Other than some profit distribution for a handfull miners there is no other advantage POS couldn’t handle better with more benifits or less drawbacks than POW.
You state that both GPUs and ASICs have “so many drawbacks,” and then imply that these drawbacks make them more or less equal.
I’m not sure what you think the “drawbacks” are for GPU mining. Perhaps you could argue that it results in a shortage of GPUs for gamers. At the same time, mining allows gamers to turn their computers into income-producing assets. There is no clear downside to GPU mining in my eyes. I see it as vastly superior to ASIC mining.
I agree that if Zcash is going to have ASIC mining, it should just switch to proof of stake, since ASIC mining has no advantages over proof of stake. However, I think GPU mining is the ideal way to distribute Zcash when 80% of the supply has yet to be issued. As the issued supply approaches the total supply, then we can talk about proof of stake.
False equivalence: you can’t play 2018 games on a 560Ti, but you can play 2013 games on it. Likewise, you can mine somewhat on a 560Ti, albeit not as well as, say, on a 1060. Whereas any 2013 ASIC won’t make any money EVEN IF you have free power. The arms race is intensified hundreds of times with ASICs. The only reasonable argument for ASICs would be if they could end the arms race once and for all, but they will not. And only Bitmain will profit from it.
So they are both useless for new adopter.
Things change quickly in crypto! 