Ok. Say your hedging on ASIC pays off. The coin gets taken over by ASIC. You have 2 rigs @ 13K. So one would assume that is your max mining war chest so to speak. You sell your rigs and get @13K (not likely). Now you can buy 6 more Z9 for a total of 7 or 70K sols/s (using some address trickery to get around the limit)…way more than you ever had right? Almost 4 times as much!! And so does everyone else because who doesn’t know that trick already from GPU limits? Then the limits come off. Now what? Big farms order 100, 200, 300, 1000? Difficulty goes parabolic. Your profits…GONE. Just like that. Every small or hobbyist miner will get pushed out in short order…and the centralization will begin. Despite what the ASIC advocates are pushing…that is what happens. That is what happened to Bitcoin, that is what IS happening to Litecoin, Dash, and Ethereum if they don’t go POS first. That’s the natural order of ASIC, it runs contrary to everything that secured crypto networks strive for.
My catch phrase: The only winner in a ASIC arms race is Bitmain.
That means you don’t understand the basics of mining if you think it’s “more efficient”. It is not.
As soon as they are selling their Z9 worldwide, the global hashrate will increase and your Z9 will not bring you as much ZEC/day as they are for Bitmain today in their farms.
I recommend that you try to understand that idea : the difficulty increases with the global hashrate. That means that when the Z9 starts to be used worldwide by many miners that Bitmain sold to, your 2000 $ Z9 mini will give you in ZEC/day much less than a mining rig that you have today (before Z9 distribution). To maintain your revenue, you will have to buy more Z9 mini to Bitmain, and you will end up pay the same amount of electricity. How is that not obvious to you ? You mine but you don’t seem to know the very elementary idea of the mining economy.
My friend, I’ve been mining since 2011. I’m anearly bitcoin miner. I know all about the system. I know all about difficulty. I went from cpu to gpu to asic with bitcoin. Ill use my gpu to mine something else, or add hashraye to my z9’s numbers Or I sell the gpu and buy 6 more z9. I don’t see the issue here.
If coin A was fully and permanently decentralized and completely and permanently ASIC resistant yet lacked privacy features and coin B was fully centralized and mined only by greedy ASiCs yet had privacy features completely uncompromised I would chose coin B.
As a user I would be using a network not because of its level of decentralization or ASIC resistance but because of its privacy preservation properties.
More hash, at a 10th of my power costs. Even when difficulty goes up. Still be doing well that my electricity price has decreased 10 fold. And I have MORE hash. Compensates for diff. I’ve played this game for years now
I end up with more hashes than I had before. Much more. And my electricity is literally 10 times less. Even with diff change it works. Like I said. Been here some this
Let me be frank with you Zcash will never be big with the general public or institutions because of the founders reward, you can think of it as a technology incubator, sell while it is high…programmers like @zooko don’t understand this no matter how good the technology is.
Disagree. I much prefer the founders reward to the insane ICO’s that keep happening. Founders reward keeps the dev team motivated and funded to keep improving and adding features to the project. I like this. ICO coin’s are constantly called scams, rip offs, etc even if they actually are not…not a desirable state to be in. Name calling by referring to anyone who doesn’t share your view as “stupid” doesn’t help further the discussion either. You can disagree without resorting to that tactic, it’s not like that person is suddenly going to say “OMG…you were right…I was stupid”. It just inflames tempers, nothing more. I don’t agree with Zooko’s perceived stance, and I’m vocal about it, but he is by no means stupid, or foolish. He did play a big role in creating Zcash, and got it this far, can you claim the same? I know I can’t, and I am by no means a “stupid person”.
Someone can only agree with this. The Founders reward keeps the project running, the devs motivated and it’s 100x times better as an ico, even more from an investor point of view.
Of course in the eyes of a greedy miner with the intention to make only as much bucks as possible this doesn’t count as it’s 20% (or whatever amount) that should be in his pocket and not the dev/team pockets.
I think (hope) that zcash devs are not primarily motivated by this reward. I can not speak for them but I think that it’s just a nice bonus, but as every great team they are doing it first and foremost to create a kick-ass product. And kick-ass product it is.
Perception is reality; here is an assignment pick a random person off the street and explain the founders reward to them and report back their response. ICO’s people understand 20% of all coins now that is something else.
Bitmain ASIC will kill Zcash promise as it will become an also ran, Monero may begin to gain market steam once this information starts to get out that they are not forking.
@zooko is probably right that asics can not be stopped long term. The question is weather it is too soon to let asics take over zcash mining. Especially with monero, zen, and more private coins competition
I agree with @banet, I think its too soon, maybe wait until the founder’s reward is over then allow ASIC to join in, the crytocurrency landscape would be much different and there would be new ASIC manufacturers
I’am trying to follow your logic and you for sure have a logic, the problem that it’s only from your point of view. You see the less profit, increased difficulty, whatever from a pure gpu miner. Most is true, no doubt, but it’s your point of view, your calculation, your everything.
An Asic miner has just other calculations, doesn’t comper gpu mining vs. asic mining profit as for a pure Asic miner there is no gpu profit he should/can/could compare. So for an asic miner the only valid calculation is to get someday it’s roi back and make some profit (eventually). And actually so far it even works, enough you are not in a country with high electricity costs. And talking about ROI, he needs to make only 2.000 Bucks while the same guy that bought his rigs needs to make let’s say just as an example, 15.000 Bucks. So even if the profit is less for an asic miner he doesn’t have to make the same profit as the gpu miner to get even.
I think this is the main problem that different point of views generate right now.
Seriously, and just as another example, i have some Baikals running, 150W power… When i bought the first it made about 50 USD day, now it makes 15 USD, and mostly in some months it makes 5 USD, but that’s totally ok, it uses only 150W. An Asic miner nowadays begins with, at least i would say, low beginning cost.
No Asic Miner expects to make the same profit as bitmain did in their “tests”, it would be follish to have such awaitings.
Actually you as well have to deal with higher difficulty. I doubt the difficult today isn’t the same as last year at this time, is it? Every damn gpu is bought up in lightspeed. Where do you think are these all going? 90%, at very least, for mining.
So it would make some sense NOT to teach an Asic miner what to do as you have total different calculations, expenses, investements, everything.
However, i’am more and more confident most arguments ( of course there are some valid ones too ) are just about the own personal income/profit, the investment, the ROI you have to hunt (even more if you bought cards the last months at overprized prices) and nothing else. Only a handfull people here have an understanding for the zookos motivation. That he has allready invested some 500.000 Bucks, you guys don’t even care, because it’s not your money from your pockets that has been paid.
Ok, i understand the intention of most gpu miners that somehow have to break even at some point, but than again why all the time these attacks vs asics. I personally as well think that gpu nowaydays is old fashioned, outdated, not up to date and and and, but i’am never going to try to convience anybody about it. It’s to everybodies own discretion what hardware someone buys, it’s everybodies own risk like the whole business we are in is a high risk one.
IF eventually zcash decides to fork away from Asics, no bad feelings, there are other coins on equihash. If all fork away, bad luck, that’s the risk everybody purchasing such machine took from beginning. No bad feelings. I will keep my Zcash holdings as i believe in the whole project, with or without Asics, easy as that.
What when FPGAs come? You really think they will be decentraliced again? I doubt, a smart company for sure has allready begun to plan, construct or even test them. The partnership btw. Samsung and an unknown so far chinese Asic manufactor can only again hint to Bitmain. I personally hope it is not Bitmain as i’am all for competion as well, but you can not force competition if there is no real other competitor available or even accepted.
While many of you guys think that monero made the right thing. I would not bet on this one. Right now it looks everything but good for the monero guys compared to their direct competiton. Same goes for Bitcoin Gold that for sure will fork. BTG is the Titanic in the top 25 coins in my opinion, only good thing is that they make place for a better project now to get into top 25. Call me whatever you want, but i bet BTG with the fork will sink fast, XMR with the fork will sink slowly due the better community and at least some support they have …
This guy probably has one 1080ti running he bought for $1300. And is fighting everything to try and make his money back.
A founders reward is key. It keeps a foundation running. Programmers, security, scalability, new features
And if soooo does get a minuscule piece of it…fine. He made it. This is his baby. And he keeps it well nurtured. Time is money.
