must admit, after reading the latest bunch of insults from GPU miners that continue even after getting their way; makes me feel far less sympathetic towards GPU miners.
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LOL…I don’t think they got their way. That paper was a stalling tactic that will end up for naught most likely.
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No…I bought some Z9’s and was giving my honest assessment. Not everyone that takes a slightly different position is the enemy. I can see what is going on it doesn’t have to be a conspiracy. I know corporate PR/double speak quite well.
i think you’re litterally making things-up. show proof they’re stalling on purpose, plz
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Yeah…big time progress. I have heard every argument under the sun lately about how ASIC is going to be this magic thing, everything will magically get even better. Us bad GPU people won’t be able to centralize the coin anymore, the marketcap will go up because ASIC. It’s somehow better for the environment and will reduce power consumption somehow too.
I’m still waiting for the magical increase in marketcap that the Pro ASIC crowd keeps touting comes from ASIC. It’s been known for a little over a month the threat was coming, confirmed for awhile now as well. But Marketcap didn’t increase…oddly enough Zcash is losing???
ZEC versus XBT (BTC) on Bitmex:
Maybe it’s because BTC rallied…ZEC versus USD should show the truth right?? That’s what Pro ASIC people kept saying:
ZEC VS USD on Bitmex:
Nope…serious downtrend there too. Where is the magic increase in value?? Shouldn’t it have shot up like a moon launch when the ASIC was confirmed???
That’s was stated again and again…but that doesn’t seem to be panning out yet. Do we have to wait for them to send the difficulty into orbit first to see this magic effect of increased marketcap due to the magical ASIC?? Difficulty is some how equal to marketcap maybe??
Maybe the value of a coin doesn’t have any relation to the equipment used to mine a coin…maybe it has a lot to do with perceived value by those who hold, buy, trade, and spend it. Maybe it has a lot to do with the community that espoused the coin from the start, supported it, defended it from FUD attacks again and again, and bought, mined, held, and USED it. Maybe that is the what makes or breaks a coin??
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No evidence just a hunch based on prior experiences. I don;t want to argue about it. I just wanted to give my position. Since the paper they put out was edited and had less “teeth” in it. It was put out to try to tone down the outcry by the community. Plus we know Zooko is perfectly fine with ASIC’s. No coin has ever come back from being majority ASIC mined and I don’t believe Zcash will be the first.
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I thought about this some more and have come to the conclusion that hashrate is almost meaningless. To 51% attack a GPU mined coin you need 51% of GPU hashpower. To 51% an ASIC mined coin you need 51% of ASIC hashpower. The ultimate number is not all that important. The true importance is the value of the underlying coin being mined. The higher the coin’s value the more cost involved to buy the equipment to attack it.
So the argument of hashpower only tangentially relates to security. It is not a measure in and of itself. The security of Zcash will not go up because of a higher hashrate. The only variable is the cost of the miners to attack the network. The price will be much less to attack it early on since the Z9 is so efficient. And later the sole determinant of the hashrate will be the value of the coin which directly relates to the profitability of mining the coin. So the new measure should be price/hashrate or vice versa.
I just sold my GPU’s for 100% of what I paid for them after using them for 8 months. I sold 1 Antminer S9 for 200% of what I paid for it, and 1 for 400% of what paid for that one. That was back in October when Bitcoin was around $17,000. It really just depends on the price of the coin that the miner/GPU is good for. If any other Equihash coin were to suddenly skyrocket and the difficulty was low, Every single whining miner on here would flock to that coin. The only thing you’re faithful to are the profits, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is a free market, and we are each just trying to make the best guess of what will happen next, and hoping that we are not wrong. Stop trying to manipulate the developers with your shouting and whining. Technologies change. It is their product in this free market to do with as they see fit, regardless of what you or I think about it- go start your own coin, and you can control it. This thread just reinforces my hatred for the bullying of companies through social media and how it needs to stop.
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Stalling tactic, not a stalling tactic, it doesn’t really matter. The outcome will be the same in all probability. 6 Solid months to get as much ASIC out the door and hashing on Zcash. 50 unit max now, instead of 1. If you have ever read my posts you will remember me referring to ASICS as a arms race. This is the arms race part of it. Bitmain is shrewd, they will do everything in their power to ensure they dominate the coin and eliminate a chance of a hard fork to “brick them”. The foundation statement does little more than promise to “keep researching” something the zcash forks seem to have already figured out how to do somehow…but it’s insanely complicated…but it’s already happening on the forks… Head scratch. We may implement a fork after overwinter. (Does the statements by ZcashCo and what we are seeing of the Equihash forks look contradictory to anybody besides me?)
- That’s not a position, that is nothing more than we already had, no actual stance one way or the other.
- By the time you roll out overwinter there won’t be a decision to make…especially now that Bitmain has decided to start ramping things up quickly (so much for trying to ensure a equitable distribution to prevent hoarding).
- If I can put two and two together and realize by December…maybe…means really nothing at all. Why would you expect people to be like “Woot that is awesome!!”…well the ASIC guys and gals probably are saying that…maybe…
Your playing around with a entity that doesn’t care how they win, they just want to win. They WILL get control, and when they do, expect Jihan to start dictating to “you” what you can and can’t do with the project…or maybe they will just mine some empty blocks for awhile until you understand how the new dynamic works. Or maybe you will get a ominous tweet wishing you good luck if you dare defy his wishes. Not speculations there folks…Bitmain and Jihan actually did both of these things. But remember ASIC is the future…a future dictated according to Bitmain.
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I absolutely agree, every ASIC miner would flock to that coin for “Mad Profit” just like everyone else right? Right?
Let’s do some math slick. I have 9 ZEC generated from October 2017 to now. That’s would have been worth about $2700 when ZEC was still $300 (it’s down to $276 btw) still want that ASIC? That is with how the difficulty is now. You keep saying we are whining about profit…$2700 for a little over 6 months of mining? Yeah I’m rolling in it man. My Lambo is on back order, and we are vacationing in Bora Bora next week. You can try to paint the narrative all you want, but reality is reality. This is Zcash, not Bitcoin and the price isn’t 20K let alone 9k+. We never made “mad cash”, but we are still here. We are/were building something until it seems someone decided “Yeah, I’m just going to take that too…go cry in a corner loser”.
Now come up with a “real” argument.
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How is being able to buy the first batch being greedy? Or, is it your jealousy that you can’t accept and need to blame others for? Did you switch to GPU mining when CPU mining was no longer profitable? I used to mine XMR with my CPU likea year ago, but that changed once prices rose. CPU < GPU < ASIC < (who knows what’s next? Maybe Quantum ASICs). Bitmain has likely already made their R&D back, but if algos keep changing when an ASIC comes out, Bitmain is just going to be pissed off and not offer them for sale after they use them. They could easily have over 50% of the hashrate - they probably already do for Zcash and whatever else they are secretly running now, so I wouldn’t actively try and eliminate their business, or their may get vindictive someday.
So the answer is to just roll over and say “Yes sir, can I have your used garbage for a ridiculous price?” Even though you are using the latest batch that is rumored to be what? 7X faster? Where do I sign up??? /sarcasm
What happened to the goal of keeping it so anyone could mine (low entry point) that coin with commonly available general purpose hardware? A CPU…yes that fits the description. A GPU…yes that fits the description. A ASIC…not common, high entry point (to compete you need a BUNCH of them), general purpose…not even close…it’s a ASIC…it’s about as specific a purpose as it gets. Or is that too old school and idealistic…wait…we are the greedy ones weren’t we?? Greedy people don’t have ideals.
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Because people buying the ASICs right now are the only ones who will benefit from them. 90% of the miners that are using GPUs will be displaced. Hurt the many to support the few who get ASICs?
In 1 or 2 months when the Z9 is making $5 a day or less who is going to buy them? This will only make getting into mining harder. And when GPUs took over from CPUs you could order them from almost any online store that sold computer equipment. That is the HUGE difference with ASICs, and how Bitmain is the ONLY source of them currently. Only the people getting them now will maybe make their money back.
5x current difficulty = $6 day
10x current difficulty = $3 day
20x current difficulty = $1 day , Within 2 months we will hit this rate.
So after ASICs take over, we are now stuck with 1 source of mining equipment, ASICs from Bitmain. Lets all hope they release a new version for us and not keep it to mine for themselves.
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So you will support a company that might just stop selling the only source of Equihash miners and say there is nothing wrong with it. Then say that we need to be carful because they are so big and might do something to hurt the community. These are the people buying the ASICs right now, I rest my case , sigh.
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I started mining Zcash when it was worth like $30, and was barely successful as I fumbled through the getting started guide for Ubuntu, I ran the rig for a while, but unfortunately did not make anything. BTW, that is really the only decentralized way to do it - run your own node. $30 to $276 is quite a big jump I’d say. I also started mining Bitcoin when it was around $300/coin. And mining isn’t really about mining the most profitable coin anyways, your better off just buying the coins if that’s what your strategy is. Mining is about the low-difficulty coins, and getting more than you would if buying them.
Thank you for the history lesson. I also have been around “awhile” and I too speculate on coins that have the potential (maybe) to turn into something great. Zcash happens to be one of them. Another (very recent) is Ravencoin…I just like their approach to be honest…and the fact that Bitmain will have to work a REALLY long time to shoe horn 16 algo’s into a ASIC to get that one…don’t see that one happening for a long long time (hopefully). I have been with Zcash since almost the very beginning first CPU mining, then GPU mining. But it was not even a hobby really then. I didn’t put any money into it, just something I was doing when I wasn’t using my computer, I honestly put more effort in to ETH at the time…then I decided I like what Zcash was doing more…and I started to put some serious effort and spending money to build Nvidia rigs since they did the best. I’m a UNIX/Linux geek so building the Linux box was the easy part. I felt “comfortable” because I, like many others, thought we had found a coin that was going to remain loyal to us (GPU miner). Even if the price dropped again and again, mine and hold, it will rebound, it only fails if you fail to support it. The beginning of this year a sticky was placed in the /r/zec forums stating 2018 is the year for Zcash? Everyone’s hard work paying off…here we go right? Well, maybe…but we decided it won’t be for the people who got us here?? Wow…just wow.
PS I run two full nodes at the house. One supports my wallet. The other is there because I can.
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Actually it would not as there are allready Asics on the network … IF you think the network will go to 0, you are totally wrong.
Strange thing, all time you guys told that Bitmain mines a lot hidden and secretly, only sells some miners to keeps his status quo on the network and the next minute you forget all that and they if you plug your rigs zcash’s network will go down.
Just again evidience many of you guys turn it forth and back as you need it. And to make it worse for you. If you plug your rigs now, i bet Bitmain would be very happy about it …
About selling your coins/holdings. Zcash has 52M volum today. As long as you don’t collect at least coins worth 2.5M USD it won’t have much impact other than many would be happy to buy them off and the next day everything is corrected again.
So you should see, your revence strategies don’t really do anything to hit neither zcash, nor bitmain nor anybody. In such case zcash can even be happy that bitmain mines allready, elimates your blackmail attempt at least.
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No, I pretty much would agree with that. They are on the network, someone else suggested all the GPU miners drop off for 1-5 hours to illuminate how much hash bitmain (and other’s maybe?) already have on the network. I pointed out the numbers would be skewed by the auto switchers like Nicehash and awesome miner, as they would detect the drop in hash power, and difficulty and probably switch over as zcash suddenly rose up in profitability.
It was a clever idea to “prove” the ASIC boxes were already there though. So not really evidence as you say, your trying to associate a remark by one miner with the remark of another who may share a common view, but obviously are going to have a differing overall approach and perspective.
The Zcash Company doesn’t make any money either way, except if the price of the coin goes up
Are you intentionally trying to mislead the community? You receive coins as coins are mined, therefore the quicker the coins are mined the faster you make them as long as the price doesn’t go down you stand to make money, yes the total amount of coins available to you is limited but due to the time value of money the earlier you receive your coins and turn them into cash/other crypto the more you stand to make.
[Edit by @daira: this argument is clearly incorrect. The difficulty adjusts quickly in Zcash, targeting a 150-second block time, so there is no significant change in the emission or founders’ reward schedule regardless of whether GPUs or ASICs are used to mine. (Disclosure of interest: I’m a founders’ reward recipient.)]
Remember, the empty cans rattling
Like I said I’m “hopeful” the research will provide at least a more clear picture of the situation and options
I am “hoping” that the answer is also conducive to an equal and diverse system
I know there’s been some scorn about all the rampant Fud, but, assuming its within community etiquette guidelines, it doesn’t matter how much they want to reiterate and be negative, you or I could do the same, its equality and if its real the door will swing both ways
Edit- effective phrase, “within community etiquette guidelines”
Also I’ve been thinking about this since this morning and am really at a loss, and anybody else can chime in on this because I’m bound to get an answer! He he. It’s more of a philosophical thing maybe
Given an equilibrium, can you think of a system that doesn’t benefit from diversity, anywhere?
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