# Mining issue. Serious **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [September 18, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661 "2023-09-18T15:57:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cris83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@Cris83](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Cris83)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 3:57pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/1 "2023-09-18T15:57:37Z")
The recent Coinbase decision is a red alert for the zcash network. POW+ASICS failed to decentralize the mining hashrate. POS is now vital. > **[Coinbase limits Zcash trading as ViaBTC poses risks of 51% attack](https://crypto.news/coinbase-limits-zcash-trading-as-viabtc-poses-risks-of-51-attack/)** > > Coinbase changed the Zcash confirmation requirement to 110 blocks, increasing deposit time from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours ---
**Author:** ![hanh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/hanh/32/27853_2.png) [@hanh](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/hanh)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/2 "2023-09-18T20:33:01Z")
Imo, POS is more centralized than POW because exchanges, funds and staking pools hold the majority of coins. They typically end up proposing most of the blocks. ---
**Author:** ![Blazin8888](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/blazin8888/32/9263_2.png) [@Blazin8888](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Blazin8888)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/3 "2023-09-19T02:45:06Z")
So you’re saying the fact that one entity controls 51% of the hash is not that big of a security issue at all? This now puts Zcash network at risk of attack. There has never been any verified instances of a single entity or group controlling more than 51% of the total hash power of the Bitcoin network. This is a fundamental security concern for blockchain networks like Bitcoin, as a majority control of hash power could potentially lead to centralization and undermine the network’s integrity. Zcash security relies on its decentralized nature… The 51% attack scenario involves a miner or group of miners controlling over 50% of the network’s computational power, which would give them the ability to potentially double-spend coins, block or reverse transactions, and disrupt the network’s normal operation. This is now possible with viaBTC controlling 51% of Zcash network. ---
**Author:** ![hanh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/hanh/32/27853_2.png) [@hanh](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/hanh)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/4 "2023-09-19T02:48:54Z")
> [@Blazin8888](#): > > So you’re saying the fact that one entity controls 51% of the hash is not that big of a security issue at all? I am not saying this at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cris83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@Cris83](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/Cris83)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 6:39am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/5 "2023-09-19T06:39:52Z")
Partially true, but most of the blocks will be \< 51% ---
**Author:** ![ChileBob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/chilebob/32/26546_2.png) [@ChileBob](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/ChileBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/6 "2023-10-22T00:08:46Z")
Noticed that Kraken wants 150 confirmations for ZEC deposits - sucks. ---
**Author:** ![NimmyNims](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@NimmyNims](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/NimmyNims)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/7 "2023-10-22T01:16:56Z")
Can you explain exactly what that means? Are you saying we cannot transfer ZEC to a Kraken account without significant difficulty? ---
**Author:** ![ChileBob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/chilebob/32/26546_2.png) [@ChileBob](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/ChileBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/8 "2023-10-22T01:21:56Z")
yep - takes just over three hours (approx) ---
**Author:** ![NimmyNims](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@NimmyNims](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/NimmyNims)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/9 "2023-10-22T13:13:32Z")
That’s unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![aquietinvestor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/aquietinvestor/32/34528_2.png) [@aquietinvestor](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/aquietinvestor)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/10 "2023-10-22T16:20:58Z")
@Beth and I have been working with Coinbase and various mining pools to try and resolve this issue. Here’s where we currently stand: - We spoke with ViaBTC, and unfortunately they say there’s not a lot they can do because they don’t run Zcash miners themselves and don’t want to tell their clients to move to other pools because it might negatively impact their revenues. - We have also been reaching out to other mining pools to determine how to address and resolve this issue. So far, in addition to ViaBTC, we have spoken to Antpool, Bitmain, F2Pool, and Luxor Mining Pool. - One idea that has come out of these conversations is doing AMAs on Twitter Spaces with mining pools like Antpool and F2Pool to promote Zcash. Bitmain is open to a Twitter Spaces event with Antpool where they will give away some free Zcash miners. These AMAs will happen in late October and early November. - Another option is to do a promotion with a mining pool where they’d offer 0% fee for mining Zcash for a month to attract new users, and then put in a grant to ZCG for $5k-$10k to cover those costs. Representatives from the mining pools say in their experience the miners are pretty sticky after the promotion ends, so long as mining Zcash is profitable. - ZCG has some apprehensions about this option, primarily because it is not clear the miners will actually stick to mining Zcash after the promotion ends, and it may not be worth the cost. ZCG is currently discussing this option; however, if it is further explored, it will happen after the initial AMAs take place. - I have also messaged @artkor who knows some of the miners in Russia to see what mining pool they use, and if it is ViaBTC, to encourage them to shift to another pool. - We’ve also asked Bitmain if they have an incentive program where they’ll subsidize the upfront costs of miners for a share in future profits. A new entrant would need to invest approximately $3 million to move 5% of hashrate. This is definitely an urgent matter, and we’re doing all we can to try to resolve it. Please let us know if there are any other options we should explore. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![ChileBob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/chilebob/32/26546_2.png) [@ChileBob](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/ChileBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/11 "2023-10-22T16:56:00Z")
How about promoting pools on the ‘official channels’ that have 30% or less of the hash? Shouldn’t be too hard to automate that. I doubt it’d move the needle much 'cos ZEC miners are mega-operations rather than home enthusiasts, but it wouldn’t hurt to try. (official channels: a daily tweet, a page somewhere main website, a daily bot post on discord & telegram) ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/12 "2023-10-22T20:49:46Z")
Think this issue is overblown. Just adjust your expectations. If it takes an extra 2 hours, or even 24 hours, so be it. We should be moving coins out of exchanges, not in 😃 Moving to POS will fix this of course. 🦓 ---
**Author:** ![ChileBob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/chilebob/32/26546_2.png) [@ChileBob](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/ChileBob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/13 "2023-10-22T20:56:02Z")
Its sand in the gears & annoying - or if you want to be paranoid an indication of the trust exchanges have in zec txns. ---
**Author:** ![dismad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/dismad/32/18432_2.png) [@dismad](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/dismad)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/14 "2023-10-22T21:00:56Z")
I just assume CEX’s will not allow deposits in the future, so use it while you can. Government doing things they say. P2P currencies need to be with people anyway. Good use case for GPU miner coins like Ycash and Vertcoin. ---
**Author:** ![skyl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/skyl/32/2938_2.png) [@skyl](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/skyl)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:12am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/15 "2023-10-23T06:12:04Z")
I’m still hoping someone can explain to me like I’m 5 why we can’t switch up the mining algorithm and bring back memory-hard hobby mining and blow ASICs off the network… I guess people would still use pools anyways though … All funds towards mining and hoarding? 😅 Can someone breakdown (like I’m 5 ofc) what ZF/ECC deploying resources to mine would look like? Just as a thought experiment. What is the magnitude of the mining footprint of the network? What is the comparable magnitude of “the dev fund orgs”? I think there could be some interesting ideas on how the network and the ZEC token could be supported in different ways. I’d pay 10 ZEC for a well researched summary of the economics of the entire ecosystem - the orgs, the miners, the large grants… The overall Zcash experiment should be a great source of data and inference. Thanks in advance! ---
**Author:** ![ChileBob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/chilebob/32/26546_2.png) [@ChileBob](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/ChileBob)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:20am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/16 "2023-10-23T10:20:20Z")
Maybe a ZF or ECC pool where the ‘fee’ goes to ‘dev fund’ ? A pool is just a server, doesn’t need much. It could also be a pool that ‘doesnt mine spam’ - although wouldn’t make much difference as other pools could. Issues:- Big miners tend to use their own pool, it’s a bit more efficient & they’re all about that. It’s also against the push to POS so doubt there’s much interest. ---
**Author:** ![noamchom](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/noamchom/32/20269_2.png) [@noamchom](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/noamchom)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/17 "2023-10-23T11:32:38Z")
Proof of Stake won’t be happening for a few years, so I think this hashrate centralization problem needs to be taken seriously because of how many risks it elevates. In general this is a sticky PR problem that makes Zcash look unprepared and incapable of actually delivering on its ideals about being decentralized & secure. Best of luck to the teams working on mitigation! ---
**Author:** ![tromp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/tromp/32/522_2.png) [@tromp](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/tromp)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/18 "2023-10-23T17:47:06Z")
> [@Blazin8888](#): > > There has never been any verified instances of a single entity or group controlling more than 51% of the total hash power of the Bitcoin network. For long periods, Satoshi controlled 100% of the hash power. In July 2014, the [GHash.io](http://GHash.io) mining pool briefly exceeded the 51% threshold [1]. [1] [GHash.io - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHash.io) ---
**Author:** ![conradoplg](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/conradoplg/32/42878_2.png) [@conradoplg](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/conradoplg)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/19 "2023-10-23T18:05:16Z")
> [@skyl](#): > > I’m still hoping someone can explain to me like I’m 5 why we can’t switch up the mining algorithm and bring back memory-hard hobby mining and blow ASICs off the network… I guess people would still use pools anyways though … We can. The hard part is having a hash algorithm that does hold up (given enough time everything can be done in ASIC). But apparently the old Ethereum and the Monero algorithms are holding up. Someone just needs to propose it and the community has to support it. ---
**Author:** ![noamchom](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/zcash/user_avatar/forum.zcashcommunity.com/noamchom/32/20269_2.png) [@noamchom](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/u/noamchom)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661/20 "2023-10-23T18:47:00Z")
Ethereum Classic also has a solution that has successfully prevented what used to be common 51% attacks. > **[An Elegant MESS— The Fast Solution to 51% attacks and Low Hash Rate](https://medium.com/ethereum-classic-labs/an-elegant-mess-the-fast-solution-to-51-attacks-and-low-hash-rate-4e8f8347bdfe)** > > ETC Core, in consultancy with OpenRelay and ChainSafe, have developed and propose a finality algorithm, called MESS, for Ethereum Classic [Next page](https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/mining-issue-serious/45661.md?page=2)