The State of Zcash Governance

No, no. I believe it is a fact that Zcash governance has already been abused and manipulated. I was not implying that was something you were planning to do at some future point in time, just that you were obviously searching for simplified ways to continue to do so, ideally without having to deal with ZF, as that just complicates unilateral abuses, does it not?.

Also, I was not arguing against “setting up more independent entities”. I was just arguing against setting up additional entities that are going to be run by the same abusive incumbent powers-that-be and/or their cronies (as is the case with Shielded Labs), because that would not really qualify as “new independent organizations”, would it now?

Ideally, we get rid of the dev fund, which is the source of what I perceive to be a native corruption within Zcash, and also the cause of all this non-stop infighting and power-grab attempts. Instead, the community starts voluntarily funding projects on a direct and “per case” basis (similar to Monero’s CCS). If such an approach does not gain the needed traction, we pack our things, go home, and hope a less-corrupt project eventually integrates and/or picks up on the R&D the community has funded so far to bring financial privacy to the masses.

I find it an insult to my intelligence that you come here and say such a thing when this is how you originally tried to sell the scheme to the community:

Aslo when the literal title you chose for your post was “Shielded Labs: An Independent, Non-US Organization” (", so please spare me the cheap attempts at spinning what you are all trying to sell to the community.

I never said Shielded Labs was related to ZCG, but that’s a nice straw man you came up with there. Very obviously the plan is to eventually plug Shielded Labs (aka “the jurisdiction diversification proposal”) directly to that juicy juicy dev fund the powers-that-be in Zcash so much love to capitalise on to extract value from the community:

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As I mentioned before, powers-that-be make it really easy to spot the ways with which they plan to continue to abuse the dev fund and the Zcash community :slight_smile:

Gotcha. So your issue really has less to do with Shielded Labs being created to address US regulatory risk. You don’t want to see it become a recipient of the dev fund. In fact, you don’t want to see any orgs receive the dev fund, but rather following a volunteer funding model similar to Monero.

It’s often difficult to follow your posts (or take them seriously) because rather than articulating your points clearly in a constructive manner like you did in the quote above, you talk about baseless conspiracy theories and “manipulation” by the “powers that be”.


I would love to call out names directly, but that is a certain way to get censored in this forum, so the ambiguous “powers-that-be” term is the next best thing :slight_smile:

I have no interest in any of you “powers-that-be” :wink:, to take the things I say seriously. The things I say usually go against your manipulative ways and interests, so you won’t anyway. I speak to the those in the community that have already open their eyes to the rotten political economy behind Zcash.

If you’re not going to be redistributing the block reward as grants then what will you doing with it?

Shielded Labs would be a Zcash support organization similar to ECC and ZF, with employees doing Zcash related work. I never said anything about redistributing block rewards as grants. That’s what ZCG is for. Please read this post for additional information:

For the Zcash Sustainability Fund, we hired two engineers from the Equilibrium Group as contractors to do the development work. We structured the independent contractor agreement in milestones similar to how ZCG structures its grant agreements. Is that why you think Shielded Labs issues grants? We did it that way because we don’t currently have full-time employees.


I support your project Ycash and yet I cannot understand your constant need to insult those engaging in honest dialogue on this forum. Perhaps you can simply say you disagree with @joshs versus posting the insulting memes?

I say this respectfully to you sir.


The text added to that meme was entirely substantive. Read it. There was no insult.

I hear you and thanks for the clarification. I believe everyone on the forum has something to contribute and I remain hopeful that we can all engage with kindness and respect.

Perhaps you could post your content without the memes (Willie Wonka) and then again, perhaps I should see more of the humor in it? I’m open to being wrong.

And FWIW, thank you for how much you care about Zcash and Ycash. I am a long-term holder of both.


I bear no ill will towards @joshs and I enjoyed participating alongside him in that recent town hall on Twitter Spaces.


This post contains attacks. I dislike the form.

I am -1 on the US.

How else do you anticipate to hear feedback from your product if you never interact with potential customers? App store reviews??

Check out the Zingo Labs idea… there’re a few instances of them now. Each is (or will soon be) catalyzed around a Treasury implemented as a Zingo instance. In the ones I participate in we use majority voting to unlock funds from our treasury. We cooperate with, catalyze, and mutually support other Zingo Labs instances (which I am not a member of).

We optimize for a Zcash-In → Zcash-Out model… we receive zcash from sources that value our efforts, and we use it for the services we need (like supporting people to write software, and expand the Zingo user base).

I think we may have forgotten to check in with… well… frankly anybody to see if we had permission to operate as we do.

My thoughts on trademark… I forgot about the issue.

My thoughts on using zcash:

I am all in.

My challenge to you, the reader, is the following:

Ask yourself when was the last time you asked someone to accept zcash for some good or service you needed.

If it wasn’t in the last 48 hours… then maybe you’re using too much surveillance-coin. Maybe you’re too comfortable. Maybe you’re too invested in the way things work now… and maybe that way is dissolving the most precious parts of the human experience.

Soo… @Souptacular @joshs @pkr @nathan-at-least @zooko @aquietinvestor etc… purchased a new good-or-service with Zcash recently?


Would these employees be paid in fiat?

Yo @chammy can you point me to some of your contribs? How are you helping to build a future that permits and empowers human autonomy?

Got any neat innovative ideas to share? Code? Blog posts?


The engineers we hired as independent contractors (that I mentioned above) are paid in shielded ZEC based on an agreed-upon amount in euros.


Awesome! This aligns with my values. I wouldn’t support Shielded Labs if it weren’t true. Do the traditional institutions ZF and ECC pay their employees in Zcash?


I think it’s important to be honest about how much we each actually use Zcash for payments, so being candid, from memory, I’ve bought a piece of artwork, donated to a few nonprofits, anonymously bought a domain name for my friend, sent a tip to an Uber driver after onboarding him onto a wallet, paid back money I owed to a friend using ZEC, given ZEC as birthday/christmas presents, paid for a VPN service, and sent ZEC to exchanges to convert into USD/CAD. There’s probably a few things I’m forgetting, but that’s pretty much it. I recognize that it isn’t much for someone who’s been involved with the project as long as I have, and that should be a red flag.

I personally don’t try to onboard people. Part of the reason is that my personality/anxiety doesn’t make that easy, but it’s also because I just don’t think we have products that are usable enough for it to work. I’ve vicariously experienced, through entrepreneur friends, how hard it is to get in the door; basically any kind of inconvenience ends up being a roadblock, and it takes a concerted effort to help adopters get past those roadblocks quickly.

Asking to pay in ZEC is a good idea though, it’s low-cost, so I’ll try to do it more. I’ve asked to be paid (for audits) in ZEC, and that has actually worked a couple times, especially when the project I was auditing was crypto-related.

I should also mention that for me, I’m hesitant to actually use ZEC because figuring out the taxes is so damn stressful, I’ve had a couple accountants quit on me, and I’m still not 100% confident my taxes are correct despite checking everything as best I can. It’s a massive amount of anxiety. I’m also hesitant to spend ZEC, because for me it’s more of a long-term investment than cash.


If you feel like sharing who/how you’ve asked that great! But I’m not really asking for disclosures. Rather I am advocating that people check in with themselves… honestly.

Folks, like @Jgx7 say things like:

My bet is that @Jgx7 isn’t trying to use zcash for day-to-day transactions. To be fair, that possibility is itself new, and-still-klunky… and as has been pointed out to me elsewhere:

Asking for accommodation is *difficult*, prohibitively so for some of us!

All well and good, but I am noticing a pattern, that’s something like this:

“Asking for accommodation, requesting deviations from default patterns, is difficult for me, therefore I will generate justifications for why it’s not important.”

That’s not necessary. If asking your local community barista to make space for your needs isn’t comfortable, then don’t! No need to justify how you are! Be you.

What I am requesting is that folks notice that it’s possible.

It’s possible to ask for the community that you’re a part of to adapt itself for you.

It makes you vulnerable to rejection… probably the deepest form of fear we’ve evolved, fear of shunning. But… it’s possible. If not for you personally, then for your compañeros.

I probably was too forceful when I proposed that everyone ought to try to use zcash… at least… in some ways… that’s not right for everyone. But… everyone can be aware that the possibility exists.

It’s OK, to ask your community to accept you, with your values.