Zcash Privacy Group

As mentioned here, I wish to find a group of people particularly passionate about the privacy aspect of the project. Together, we would create a separate community, one very friendly to the current one, evidently!

The goal would be to influence token holders as well as other communities (respectfully so), in any way that would enable ZEC holders to use our tokens as privately as possible. Currently, aside from the catastrophic t-addrs, we most often leak massive amount of metadata through most wallets, including the cold ones. It’s fantastic we have shielded transactions, but there’s a lot more to achieve still.

There are plenty of ways how this can fizzle out and/or go wrong, so let’s keep things simple and take it slow. Would you be interested? If yes, please say so and share any thoughts you wish on what this should look like and how we should move forward.

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I certainly feel you with this request. It seems like we expend so much time and energy debating how to govern and forget the entire purpose of Zcash. It often feels like we get stuck in a quagmire and lose sight of what drew us to this project in the first place.

It’s about self empowerment! The ability to control what and how you share yourself with the world. Privacy is the key to personal freedom.

That’s what drew me to Zcash in the first place, if a 100% online digital currency can have the properties of real world “cash” then it levels the playing field for the everyday person. Banks can’t choose to cut you off, Visa can’t take a cut, vendors you buy from can’t track you after the fact. Why should we have to sacrifice those freedoms just because we want to buy something over the Internet.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to hit “Zeboot” with the forums and shift the focus more on how to make Zcash better, how to attract users, and how to use it in our everyday lives. The ECC team is here, the ZCG is here, the ZF is here, they are all reading your feedback and can act in meaningful ways to move Zcash forward so why the hell aren’t we doing that?

Short term thinking is a plague, staring at a price chart on a daily basis is an utter waste of time, running from one fire to the next, pointing fingers, micromanaging others, reaction instead of action, all gets us nowhere.

Instead we should brainstorm, imagine, iterate, prototype, forecast, envision, look at the big picture!

/rant

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To me this is what zecpages was about. It’s literally the embodiment of putting your money where your mouth is.

100%; privacy is very important, its the common demominator. But we can not get lost in it. If privacy is the north star, we will end up in the North Pole where its cold and empty. We need to also include store of value, and viability as core tenants. Privacy brings freedom; but it is not free. Freedom has a cost: mining, development, capital. We currently give it away for free. So the inflationary cost although hidden from the average person is not hidden from anyone who understands it. And it certainly is not hidden from the market and buyers who have to absorb this relentless supply of tokens that keep getting sold.

From what I have seen from @joshs. Its a major step in the right direction. It makes privacy useable. Privacy is transaction technology and not a store of value technology.

So, I like the idea of a privacy group; but more important to me is a ZEC group. People that want to make ZEC valuable.

  1. Store of value
  2. Privacy
  3. Governance
  4. Fees / Decentralized development

Privacy by itself wont make ZEC valuable.

I think 1 & 2 above can not be split apart if we want to make ZEC valuable. Privacy does not give something value, it makes something that is already a store of value better. Governance is how we guide development. And fees is how we make it sustainable, viable, valuable, and decentralized over the long run.

People are not accepting ZEC as a store of value, why?

Some reasons I can think of (and of course its my opinion):

  1. Inflation. Major risk of going higher than the 21m cap and trying to alter the halving schedule. Its a slippery slope. Once you change it, then the community just can not be trusted.
  2. Wallets. They just dont work well; sync times are too slow.
  3. Selling ZEC as Fiat - What makes fiat work well and gives it stability is largely collateral . Central banks carry very significant collateral. Yes. the US fed uses gold as shadow, collateral. They own more than anyone in the world. Other governments use USD as collateral. ZEC has no collateral. It cant and wont work as a fiat.
  4. Messaging - we tried to convince people ZEC was fiat. Its digital gold.
  5. Risk / Governance. It’s a very high risk project with no governance in place. Its anarchy with a shadow government. its unclear people actually care about ZEC as a store of value or care about ZEC holders.

If the group wants to try and focus on making ZEC valuable, of which privacy is only one piece, that sounds interesting. ZEC is private wealth storage. We need to give people a reason to hold. We need a vision to come out of Zeboot that shows leadership understand ZEC is private wealth storage and not a fiat. ZEC will be a staking coin or collateral coin for minting a stable fiat to use for spending.

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Maybe I misunderstand what zecpages is about. To me it’s both a service and a great little community. What it is not however, or I don’t know about it, is a group of people gathered with the intent to influence the project in ways that would benefit the privacy aspects in particular. With the intent also, to eventually get ZEC holder to delegate their voting power to us because they feel aligned with our vision.

@Jgx7 I value your reasoning even if it is regularly (but not always) in opposition to mine. However, I ask you to stop being disrespectful of what threads are about.

This thread is about privacy, respectfully accept it.

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It obviously isn’t really maintained much these days but it:

  1. Promotes use of zcash
  2. Adds more entropy to the shielded pool
  3. Builds community

It could absolutely influence the project, just as much as this shitty little discourse instance or the highly moderated discord server attempts to. All with the benefit of it being censorship resistant.

The fact that you aren’t stoked on something that actually uses the protocol (shielded memos are powerful for discussion), tells me you’ll never “get it”.

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you asked to brainstorm. i gave my opinion and now you say to not give it. i respect it you believe privacy is everything and store of value is not what matters. i just think privacy won’t make zec valuable; it just makes whatever zec is private

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What are you talking about, I love what zecpages is doing. You don’t need to be passive aggressive either btw.

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You literally just said you don’t understand it (zecpages). Ain’t nothing passive about my comment, sir.

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ZSAs will hopefully open up more doors, and then the network of dApps (zApps?) that are built upon Zcash adds further value to the chain. Right now, it’s priced accordingly for the ghost chain that it is.

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Personally, I find them very unpractical for smooth discussion, or impossible for group discussions. I really love them to initiate a contact and/or to confirm the identity of someone.

Matrix is the only practical and reliable single or multi person discussion service I have found that lets me remain truly pseudonymous. Discord has nicer UX but some countries may be prevented from creating accounts, phone numbers are sometimes required, etc. All in all, it’s really not great for privacy.

:100: it’s definitely far from perfect or intuitive. Hell, maybe the Brave integration can be the solution. I’m really thinking the speed improvements will come from apps built on Zcash with ZSAs.

Time will tell.

Re: other solutions, Discord makes me feel old and I definitely don’t trust it at all. Matrix seems like a bit of friction to set up, but I will confess, I’ve not used it.

Several times in the past new groups have created venues like Matrix, Discord, Mastodon, Rocketchat, Telegram groups, etc… I believe some of those may still exist, but it’s really hard to get a majority of users to shift to make the new location vibrant.

So the question is are you looking for a completely different venue to host more privacy focused discussion, or could we somehow dedicate a section here to it and have more/stricter moderation in it to keep it from veering off topic?

(admittedly, I’m also guilty of going a bit off topic in my first post in this thread)

Agree here, it takes a lot to move folks. Its under appreciated.

Screenshot_2024-01-20_07-49-52

ZecHub has a Matrix, perhaps you will feel comfortable starting there

Matrix link

I think these topics are interesting, maybe we can start the conversation here? If we get into topics that become moderated, we can go into Matrix.

I think more people would join if you offered them something more than, “these places aren’t private, follow me instead”

While not with ZEC, you can create a small token based SubDAO using DAO.DAO. This will give you almost the same thing, and you could practice what your talking about. You could call the token gZEC for governance, or what ever you like.

There’s always room for improvement, but this forum is generally a nice place to discuss anything Zcash related. My reasoning is the following:


I am very thankful for your first post, it made me feel a bit less alone actually caring a bit more about privacy and long term vision, and a bit less about price. Thank you for this!

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As mentioned in my post just above, this would be beside the point. It’s about anti-fragility. We need multiple communities to make the whole more resilient. The platform is not what this is about. That’s also actually why in my first post I suggested to take it slow. There is zero rush and as long as we are being respectful of each others as well as of the US laws, I don’t think there will be any moderation trouble. Indeed though, topics such as helping Iran citizens to get rid of their oppressive regime or helping sex workers are unlikely to be welcome and that’s a problem a separately managed discussion platform could address. But first, let’s discuss calmly all this, figure out who actually cares more about privacy and individual empowerment than market cap, then eventually we make something happen.

The reality is I think ZF/ECC would love for this to happen. They manage this forum because someone has to do it and do a decent job at it as well. If the community would build a convincing alternative, I feel confident that they would promote it.

So to be clear: I love Matrix and I am happy that we are discussing it, but it’s not what this thread is about at the core.

Interesting idea. Personally, I feel most inspired with the idea of gathering of small group of people truly passionate about privacy that could old-school agree (no need for community tokens) on what is best for Zcash, and eventually help ZEC holders make good decisions through delegation. But again, I am very curious about what others here, such as yourself, think we could do.

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