Zcash to sovereign rollup

Hi bro, good work, i agree with you👍🏻

If we look closely, we will see how today the entire crypto ecosystem has been inspired by Zcash’s Zero Knowledge Proofs. Now part of the Zcash community has been seduced by the L2 (Ethereum) fever. Vitalik himself has stated that there are problems with all this.

Before Zcash pivots towards being an L2 of another chain, I would prefer that it pivot more towards radicalizing privacy by default by eliminating T addresses. I think Zcash needs a little more rebellion, that’s all. Zcash has been a bit submissive to regulators who pressure exchanges to delist $ZEC. At the same time, regulators in the US have dismissed charges against Sam Bankman Fried for donating stolen money to US politicians. So Zcash should not ask those corrupt politicians for permission to exist.

That’s why I say, these ideas arise from the need to lift Zcash, but what I see is that Zcash must be a little more rebellious and take on its mission of bringing privacy (by default) to everyone without permission. nobody. You don’t need an L2.

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Memecoins were just as hyped and as many as L2s, doesn’t means anything. L2s are flawed on many fronts, for example pretty much all Ethereum L2s rely on a centralised point of failure called sequencers. The thing that rolls up L2 blocks onto L1 Ethereum. This is the boogyman haunting L2s at the moment. Furthermore, if there was any L2 that should have made it, it would have been lightning on Bitcoin, even your boy digital cash network eventually owned up and realised L2s for what they truly are a gimmick at best. In addition to that, I’m of the camp that you can’t have perfect privacy but you can have near perfect/best privacy only at L1 and then build from there as you wish and as you see fit.

Those transaction numbers could easily be fake or artificially propped up for all I know. It doesn’t even make sense how an L2 could have more transactions than its L1 host. It’s like saying blabla.com has received more visits than the internet. The more likely explanation is bots are making millions of worthless transactions/fake trading. You’re naive if you think otherwise. They do it with twitter and every other metric that creates the illusion of volume and hype, it’s not hard to do.

I’m not even going to get into the Monero thing at this stage as I’m not a “Monero Super Fan” like yourself. And I do not use Monero like yourself. But we can create and go down our own version of the “Monero route” in our own compliant, civilised and structured way.

What Zcash needs is new investors not a new chain.

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zcash might need new investors. but that won’t solve the problem. zcash needs assets that can scale or it collapses under its own weight. the only reason to move to an L2 is to help another L1 scale. what we need are assets to help zcash scale. zec won’t do it on its own.

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Shielded stablecoins are a must.

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Good idea, we need pos

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What’s Arbitrum? Not anything comparable to Zcash or Monero.

I havent been following closely but between the ledger-connect fiasco, “NOBODY USE ANY DAPPS UNTIL WE FIGURE OUT WHATS GOING ON!”, and some basic Ethereum statistics [1], the cypherpunk zeros getting stolen, a hack every day, I’m biased to be persuaded that Ethereum is not censorship resistant, not secure, and not decentralized meaningfully.

[1]

To be fair, I havent spent as much time researching and considering as I probably should to comment. This is more my general reaction to the headline.

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I agree! In general, the comparison is strange. Arbitrum exists only because Ethereum cannot cope without crutches, having insufficient scalability and this leads to expensive operation of L1. Does Zcash have such problems today? Everything in this topic is far-fetched. Who is the beneficiary of this?

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I’ll answer myself. It only benefits a dead expensive PoW network that will never be able to scale in L1, that will never be able to add privacy in L1, that while we are alive will not jump off the PoW mining needle and that still exists only because of greed and because it has become an idol of the greed of millions of people.

Don’t let yourself be fooled!

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will Zcash need L2? maybe
but to remove a private L1 is bad idea iwo.
im no expert but relying on another public L1 doesnt seem super gud.
yes Zcash does need scaling if it wants to succeed, but not sure only a L2 is path forward.

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Someone may have missed these articles from the ECC blog, may have already forgotten or come back later. I am still relying on my memory:

Scalability and Recursion

Recursive proof composition allows a single proof to attest to the correctness of practically unlimited other proofs, effectively allowing a large amount of computation (and information) to be compressed. This is an essential component for scalable Zcash, not least because it allows us to horizontally scale the network while still allowing pockets of participants to trust the integrity of the remainder of the network.

from:

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I’d be curious what the developers think. They probably know best.

In my imaginary ideal, the core protocol and the nodes are worked on so that boring stuff like running nodes more easily and faster transaction finality, syncing, TPS … so that stuff like that are made better, iterative improvements to network privacy, wallets, nodes … developer libraries, … trimming tech debt, ci/cd, devops, automation. Just the basics! Can we roll-up the chain history, prove it, discard it, switch to Rust everywhere … do scaling magic … ? We could probably do big things more easily if we squash tech debt and continue with fundamentals day by day.

From my view at a distance, the only thing i like about Ethereum is the price. So, I’d rather we stick to our knitting and keep chopping wood.

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I’d love to see Zcash become an ETH L2, it would immediately add about 10,000% more proximal users to the Zcash feature set.

Transforming Zcash into an ETH L2 is a conceptual no-brainer.

The major challenge is to technically accomplish it!

Unfortunately, adding recursive proof composition isn’t even on the roadmap for the next 5 years. Which is to say in practical terms - its never going to happen.

The more rational path to scalability would be to evolve into an L2. It accomplishes two challenges at once (scalability and user access).

Ethereum has a lot of issues, and isn’t perfect. I likely wouldn’t advocate for Zcash to use Ethereum for DA in the event that it became a rollup.

I was just referencing Arbitrum usage :slight_smile:

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ETH L2 would be interesting! But, I think there are some potential issues with handing over sovereignty to Ethereum that I wouldn’t necessarily be comfortable with.

The perfect solution here doesn’t exist yet. I understand both Namada and Penumbra are thinking about privacy-preserving DA :slight_smile:

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Thank you for this response! If all of this was improved in the next year or two, and we had a clear path to deprecate t-addresses, then I might be on board!

I think one thing that remains unanswered is long-term network security. How can we maintain the 21m cap? Where does the volume come from? How do we process that volume? Can the chain scale effectively to maintain users and volume which pay for security? Or do we implement some type of tail emission? Discussions are needed here!

Also, why does everyone think I like Ethereum :laughing:

Re Devs, yes. I’ve been told feedback should be coming soon. The core teams may hate this. They might think it’s interesting like others who have said so. It might not be the best idea, but it’s still worth discussing!

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This. :point_up:

Zebra’s modular architecture will make it significant easier to migrate away from the old Bitcoin-based consensus layer and networking stack.

On the topic of whether Zcash should become a “sovereign” rollup, I still hold the view that I shared during Zcon3:

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Thanks for sharing! Could you clarify what you mean by “zkrollup-based architecture” in this recent comment? I understood this as meaning Zcash could potentially migrate to using another blockchain as DA and/or settlement :slight_smile:

If Zcash stays on “its own platform” what are the foundation’s views on long-term network security?

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