Zooko talking about PoS. PoS vs PoW Discussion

The big problems I have with PoS is the rich get richer with just a one time investment that compounds interest,
for the duration of the coins lifetime. They will gain a bigger percentage of the staking over time if they control the most coins. Its the definition of rich get richer

Another reason is alot of them have you lock up your coins in a stake, the point of currency is to spend it, not lock them up where the longer they stay locked/unused the more they can gain.

PoS makes people NOT want to spend the money they have, as it will reduce their rewards. The thing giving crypto alot of its value, is its use as a currency. If people dont want to trade/spend it, it has failed as a Medium of Exchange AKA money. Its a bad form of currency if people just want to hold it in an account to gain more of it and dont want to spend it.

CURRENCY refers to money in any form when in actual use or circulation as a medium of exchange

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Well I am sure you’ve heard of such compound interest at banks, where you lock your money for some time. Still as you said a lot of them have that locking requirement, but not all. I dont like locking your coins, and the PoS i would envision is one that just adds mined coins at the end of the day of each active wallet in case they have 1 or more Zcash. By active i mean they moved their coins in last year.

Rich get richer is always the case. I could argue rich can afford to move their mining equipment somewhere where price of electricity is very low, but can average joe ? No he mines usually from his house where he pays residential electricity rates. Investing directly in coins that produce compound interest is best way for everyone to earn their share of zcash.

PoS makes people not want to spend money they have, easy to say that at Zcash = 130$, sure but once it goes to 2000-3000 $ do you think people wont spend it then ?

From some of the videos I watched on POS. The wallet must be connected to the internet 24/7! So if you have in on your phone, pc, what ever they have to be on 24/7 to! That’s active.

Yea
What does mining do? Verification
What does staking do? Verification

How secure do you think the network would be when most everybody has their computer off?!

You turn off your phone?

At work I have to. No phones allowed on and on the floor. 40 hours off a week unless overtime.

Actually not all. There are POS coins you don’t need your wallet to be open, NEO and Komodo are mostly the most popular examples for this.

An easy solution for 24/7 open wallets are:

  • VPS service, costs around 5% per month, peanuts compared to mining
  • an old Laptop connected to internet, that’s what i do, only POS wallets there, absolutly nothing, again a cheap solution and without display on electricity consumption is minimal.

Compared to 24/7 POW mining these are easy and cheap solutions for sure…

Edited: Corrected a typo, wrote VPN instead VPS

About richer get rich, this applies more to POW. Actually you make even the electricty companies richer and the gpu/asic producers richer as well as a nice side effect instead of yourself, lol. I won’t mention all the arguments which makes in POW the richer get rich more. The main argument that average joe has not access to cheap electricity locations, cheaper hardware or hardware at all speaks for itself. Again, in POS there are mechanisms and designs that reduce this gap while in POW they enlarge the gap without any design possible to make this gap smaller.

About looking them up in POS. From ALL POS coins i have tested so far actually only 1 needs the coins to be locked and i personally wouldn’t use such POS coin. There might be some other coins that needs looking them up but from around 30-35 personally tested POS coins i encountered this only once, hence it’s not practice at all.

About not wanting to spend them. Nobody forces anybody NOT to spend your POS coins, trade them, do whatever you want with them. But these that instead of trading or using it help the network staying secure are rewarded for this task, absolutly normally. Nobody forces you to stake all. Stake half, trade with the other half as an example. Or spend the rewards, that’s what i’am doing on some coins. I use the rewards, daily to spend them. Now tell me how often do you spend your POW rewards? I bet never and if we are really honest, we just wait that the price raises again like next year and wait to sell our POW rewards to make a good profit.
How logical is this that “money” is kept until it rices to use it?
And as a side note, see the POS wallet as an idle device. When you don’t use it you get a reward. I doubt you spend and use and trade 24/7 all the year. Pay whatever you have to pay with your POS currency and let’s stake the rest and secure the network, easy as that.

This said, all you have posted is actually in favour of POS, especially this sentence:

PoS makes people NOT want to spend the money they have, as it will reduce their rewards.
It’s way worse in POW, how many people do you know that spend now their ZEC, lol. Everybody is waiting it gets to the moon and than again, they won’t spend it but exchange it. Every ZEC POW miner is holding right now his mining rewards in hope of a way better exchange rate, easy, simple and honest as that.

This said i will correct your main sentence: POW makes people NOT want to spend the money they have until a way better exchange price so they can finally pay back their investment for hardware and electricity and maybe, with some luck, make a profit.

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I disagree. Let’s examine the POW spending pressure:

  • you have pressure from your current/future hardware investment
  • you have monthly pressure paying electricity bills.
  • you have pressure paying mining pools while mining, 1-2% isn’t that low if you think about it.
  • some others minor issues and expenses…

Analyzing this sell pressure doesn’t do any good for yourself. You don’t buy or use anything of the above for yourself, absolutly nothing of this, neither you paid your taxes with it, nor anything. Even worse, it’s a sell pressure that forces huge amounts of money out of crypto space. Worst case for every crypto believer that thinks a bit more about it.

IF you want crypto to be used, the sell to FIAT pressure must be eleminated in my opinion. Crytpo should stay in Crypto and this would really free up resources/crypto to purchase other things.

Come on, i’am a POW miner myself. Sometimes i think about using my mined crypto and than i have to do the calculation that at current price my investment didn’t ROI yet and that at this price with the current expenses i can’t use that given coin yet… And as said in the post above this, i allready spend daily my POS rewards for other things, absolutly daily, and i’am pretty sure that’s more real spending than most POW miners are doing.

Why would you need to use a VPN? What are you hiding? Sorry I just see the need.

I think he meant VPS, that costs 5$ / month not sure why he would need VPN.

to connect from outside to home?

Sorry, typo, VPS of course, was writting while drinking my morning coffee.

“We began a coordinated disclosure in October 2018 to notify development teams of affected cryptocurrencies ahead of this public release. The majority of them (weighted by marketcap) have already deployed mitigations.”
Heres the paper
180-preproceedings.pdf (109.5 KB)

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Thx a lot for this article. Exactly the coins someone anyway should avoid seem to use a copy & paste POS approach, at least more or less without much dev involved.

Only coin that made me wonder being on the list is PIvx, thought they had a better approach on POS than this…

Idea - a second, independent blockchain assigned half the reward that operates a PoR algo like GRC

GRC isnt suitable for a payment system because of long indeterminate block times (due to the meaningful work executed by all sorts of devices taking indeterminate time) but may be ideal for timelocking, also currently incorporates PoS and Zerocash protocol (for account protection from hijacking)
Once released, the reward could be staked or sent to the main chain but no Zcash could ever return (? About this), seems it would incentivize staking while permanently limiting the amount staked as no main chain Zcash can go to chainB (maybe timelock releases to a zb addy, maybe the only that exist for chainB, then the only possibilities are stake or send to a zs only so stakes could never be merged)
The only 51% attack for this system is a stake buyout and if the payouts are equal from point of implementation, then chainB will never have >51% so perhaps disallowing the transference around on chain may be unnecessary or perhaps even detrimental to pools and such idk (or scrap the pools we probably dont need them for this system) https://altcoinwiki.org/en/Proof-of-Research
Thoughts?

Uhmmm, i have some problems understanding the whole thingie, lol. Any chance you describe it easier?

I more or less abondanded the thought ZEC + something POS like as it’s clear by now that something else than pure POW isn’t the target the next 2 years …

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I know this (harmony mining) is off the table for NU3 as final approval for it will happen soon (or perhaps already did)

Okay here’s an idea pertaining to the proof-of-work nd proof of research\ proof of stake idea I described above
Let’s assume the blocks keep in time or even shorter time than the main chain instead of longer and the time lock mechanism would be simply part of the stake and burn
What if the second chain along with the research stuff also contained each block of the first chain and then the staker’s who would normally verify transactions (which aren’t happening on chain 2) verify the main chain transactions and produce a shard and proof
Idk its late :blush:
This seems like it may potentially solve the sharding of potentially conflicting transactions because these transactions are in fact already verified on the first chain (albeit maybe only once thats how it is now)

Ya know I still wonder if the above post even makes sense…