About POS, interesting features and designs

Mining
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Making here a topic about interesting POS/“POS like”/POA features and designs i came across while researching and testing different POS coins. Feel free to discuss and comment these features…

While i’am well aware that POS won’t be an option fo ZEC the next year this thread is not about forcing ZEC to POS, but to educate ourself about possible features, designs and interesting solutions to solve different problems and/or to invent new things.

I won’t mention the POS coins by name, but only the interesting facts/designs/solutions/possibilities as my intention is not to promote any of these coins. However, i will compare some of the features and designs to ZEC as we are on the ZEC forum at all and maybe in future, when POS becomes maybe a solution for ZEC, the devs may pick up some of these interesting ideas and make them even better, no matter it will be soonest in 2 years.

Like the “List of equihash coins” i will try to keep this topic updated.

Here the first thing that catched my eye. Voting through the POS wallet where all proposals are shown. Compared to the current ZEC voting it is totally different and in my opinion and way better solution for proposals. I mean nearly nobody checks the gifthub channels, not even talking about how difficult the navigation there is, most aren’t even aware how to vote or get a voter in ZEC. Maybe such thing could be implented even without POS?!
Having voting in a POS wallet in my opinion is a big step toward transparency, involving holders into decisions and the project itself. I really like that feature.

Images how it looks like at the desktop wallet:

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Another interesting POS wallet and it’s privacy/mixing/Zerocoin features, very easy to handle.
Edit: I have seen this feature so far on 2 POS coins, exactly the same!

(blacked out the Coin name!)

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I didn’t read it yet, but this will get my likes, because of the effort. thanks @boxalex

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Here another interesting feature where someone can see the probability of getting a reward in choosen time frames (10 minutes - 90 days), if the coins are matured allready.

It seems that NOT the whole stake applies for staking but the amount of the given transaction and the transaction itself. IF this is indeed really the case, or such implentation is possible, it would lower the advantages of big stakes. Not sure for good or bad, but i thought it’s an interesting design to mention.

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Here a project working on a POS android wallet. While the android wallet is released allredy the POS staking function has yet to be released. The staking works only with an internet connection.

If exactly this coin/project will manage to handle this solution is unknown yet, no matter it’s in their whitepaper. However, i add it because i think this is the real future and path and one of the biggest steps to mass adoption and whoever solves this problem first while have a great advantage. Just my personal opinion of course…

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CloudPOS explained:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326446671_CloudPoS_A_Proof-of-Stake_Consensus_Design_for_Blockchain_Integrated_Cloud

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Can i guess it? :smiley:

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:joy: , pretty sure some (like you) will recognize a given coin, but let’s stay it neutral. As said, the least thing i would like to do on the ZEC forum is to advertise/promote/whatever another coin, it’s not the intention. Hence if possible don’t let’s use the coin/projects name. In some cases some names will used soon or late for comparision or discussing facts, but that’s different than.

I guess your comment was about the privacy feature, right? I doubt you recognized the others…

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PROOF OF ASSIGNMENT explained:

Another POS like design i’am pretty sure will be the future. Having in mind that your vacuum cleaner, washing machine,refrigerators, smart watch, printer, TV, whatever with an ioT device can mine and you get rewards for it makes me believe this is an more than interesting approach. Not even talking about that ioT devices are strong coming the next years as it seems… Using the idle resources of these devices every household has (or will have in future) just makes sense compared to more or less special expensive hardware (Asics/GPU).

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Just a commentary here on IoT devices in general and not necessarily limited to PoA, but I always found the idea of making all household appliances “smart devices” very disturbing. I understand we already do this to some degree, but we have a long way to go in regards to ensuring data privacy and understanding exactly what data these devices are collecting and for what purpose. I don’t understand people who are okay with putting recording devices like Amazon Echo or Google Home in their houses, which essentially allow those companies to monetize your conversations through targeted ads. It’s baffling how little people care for privacy.

How does that extend to IoT devices? Well I wouldn’t be okay with my “smart refrigerator” recording how many cans of Coke I drink or what brand of Milk I buy just because it’s paying me a few cents a day in cryptocurrency.

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Interesting thoughts and for sure some very valid arguments. I admit i didn’t think about this at all but had only the technical point and possibilities in mind.

I guess it will be again a question of what design exactly is choosen and what exactly it does.

Than again. For some people ioT devices and mining won’t be an option, as it’s not an option for others to have an asic at home or spend money for a high end gpu and pay electricity for it… Everybody’s own choices, but the benefits of lowest energy use with ioT devices, no extra expenses and maintance for hardware as well as mostly superior technical advantages (transactions, transaction speed, …) leave a lot of room for interesting possibilities…

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POS-coins don’t have prime cost. And so they are more volatile. In the bear market, they fly into the abyss. Therefore POS-coins will never become assets. And this crosses out all the possible profits of this technology.

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How is PoS different from traditional stock trading, where stock owners receive dividends?
Switching to PoS might bring new traditional stock traders aboard, as its easy for them to understand the transition.

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They differ quite substantially. Traditional stocks pay dividends only if the company-issuer is a profitable and operating company. The operating profitable enterprise is an asset in itself, and stocks are shares in this asset. POS-coins bring income only to holders. What is the value of such “dividends”? You get one token for having 100 tokens. Without the prime-cost, the cost of 101 tokens today is equal to the cost of 100 tokens yesterday. In this scheme, there is no added value of the asset. In other words, the value of an asset is being eroded among holders. Please, think about it. To our happiness, we can to see the graphs of POW-coins and POS-coins. You may analyze them.

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I admit i got a bit confused first, but it’s not like that. Your formula would be hold true if the amount of coin supply would be infinite.
In the other 2 possible cases your argument does not hold true in POS:

1.) Reward for minting/mining with your POS stake: Yes, you hold these 100 tokens, let’s say out of 100.000 tokens. Means there are 99.900 other tokens that must be mined with the give block times, block rewards …
Now with my stake of 100 i got choosen to mine one and get the 1 reward block reward for my mining process and i have 101 tokens as you said as well, but the to be released tokens are not 99.899. And my 101 tokens are worth exactly 101 tokens.

  1. Additionally, the mining process in POS is not different from POW mining. The very only difference is the way HOW a BLOCK is found, nothing elese. The mining process is literally the same. Only this alone makes your argument not valid

And again, your argument would be true ONLY if there was no maximum coin/token supply, more or less what happens with our FIAT currencies.

And maybe you would like to double check the graphs too see how POW-coins vs the POS altcoins are doing.

Top 20 altcoins compared:
5 POW coins: BCH, LTC, XMR, ETC, ZEC
1 POW coin switching to POS: ETH
11 POS/POA/POS like/POW variant/Hybrid coins: XRP, MIOTA, EOS, XLM, ADA, TRX, DASH, NEO, XEM, XTZ, VET,

In the Top 20-50 coins there are almost no more POW coins listed by now, remaining only: DOGE, BTG, BCN, SC, DGB, XVG, ETP and that’s it.

I actually was thinking a lot more into your 101 coin argumentation to be honest as it was an interesting argument, no matter it doesn’t hold true in my opinion. I came even to the conclusion that your argument should be used for POW forks, no matter this sounds abstract.
A given POW project does a fork. You hold 100 coins from the project A that forks and a sudden you have 100 coins from projet A and 100 coins from the forked project B.
Or let’s say a project forks from a given token that has released allready 9M tokens out of 10M tokens, now there are another 9M tokens in circulation out of nowhere, neither are they mined, minted, whatever. They came just out of nowhere. Please think about it.

P.S.: I forgot to comment your prime-cost argument:

  1. Prime cost is mostly an indicator of how competive a given product/producer can be but anyway …
  2. The Prime cost in POW and POS are litterally the same as the mining process itself is the same. All you do in POS is eleminating not needed expenses (finding the block race!). These are not “production costs” but other expenses.
  3. Now of course you can add ALL expenses you have as a prime cost but this wouldn’t make the argument valid either. Actually it would fire back again as it makes no sense to “produce” a given project with high unnecessary expeneses and cost if these could be avoided. In real life the competition would force you out of the market immediatly, maybe that’s even what we are seeing right now with less and less POW coins and way more different POS designs day by day…
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Back to some interesting POS features and designs i came around:

POS coins need some time to get mature and be able to stake, most common seems to be 24-48 hours. However, yesterday i got my hands on a POS coin that needs 30 days to get mature, means in this period no staking.

An interesting approach in my opinion while there might be some cons with this i as well could imagine that there are 2 major pros for it:

  • works against pump&dump, volatility
  • rewards real holders more
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Related to POA:

Interesting part:

World Economic Forum has estimated that there would be total 10 trillion USD 10% of the global GDB 100 trillion USD generated through blockchain related technologies by the year 2027.

and

According to Statista, there will be over 70 billion Internet of Things devices connected by the year 2025.

let me believe that there is a logical connection btw both in future and that it’s logical that these devices will be used for mining, not much different as we use(d) cpu’s and gpu’s so far…

https://medium.com/altcoin-magazine/by-henri-heinonen-on-altcoin-magazine-5778a8eb9a8f

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I was hold enough POS coins. And I was convinced they were the future. But it’s not. I will never invest in POS again. Why do we need cryptocurrencies if their main value is to keep on our balance and get rewarded for it. In my opinion, this contradicts the logic of money.

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This is up to everybody’s own discretion in what he believes, invests and uses. Nothing bad here. You had no luck with POS or don’t think they improve whatever. That’s absolutly ok.

I for myself, a POW miner decided that i don’t any longer sponsor 3rd parties (Asic producers, GPU producers, electricity company) which all 3 make more profit than we as POW miners, by now. Where is the logic?

Nobody said the main value of POS crypto currencies is holding them, it just gets rewarded if you do so and help keeping up the network. This doesn’t contradict any logic of money. In real life it’s not different, you can immediatly waste and use every cent you get or you can invest/hold your money and maybe get dividends for doing so.

It’s a free choice if you hold them and hope for rewards or not. As you mentioned contradicts, where is the logic to POW mine POW coins? You invest FIAT money into hardware, you pay daily FIAT money for electricity, than you mine and at least 75% of the mined coins must be exchanged versus FIAT for new hardware or the next electricity bill, of course in FIAT. Totally forgot, actually the hardware you buy, by now, will never ROI. At best case, you break even after 2 or 3 years, lol. How logical is this? Or to sum it up, you invest your FIAT, monthly pay in FIAT for electricty, mine cryptos and at the end you again used it all for 3rd party FIAT companies and didn’t make any profit at all. Only chance to make a profit is to hope for another Dec. 2017 miracle that your coins go the the moon, lol. How logical is this?

I honor your opinion, it’s totally fine and i wish you all the best luck with POW mining, but this doesn’t mean good POS coins/projects are bad by design.

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I understood. :slight_smile: You see the problem there, where I see an advantage.

This doesn’t look fair at first glance, of course. However, it’s this consortium and the interconnection of many players in this business, it’s this what guarantees the success of projects. Business invests its resources in it and earns it. And this makes cryptocurrencies popular among businessmen. For a businessman, an intuitively normal formula: invested money - earned money. And the more money invested, the larger the industry itself becomes. The crypto industry is developing, rising to feet and already confidently counteract to bankers. This would not have happened if there was only a community of crypto-punks holders and coders behind the back of the industry. You and I would not know anything about cryptocurrency today if ever such people as Charles Shrem, Roger Ver, Barry Silbert, Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss and many other businessmen would not want to make money on these technologies.

And as for ASIC and GPU producers …

Over the years, we have seen how chip technology froze. Marketing and savings killed technology development. In fact, the processor race was frozen because there was no point in it. Consumers didn’t need these computing powers. They needed beautiful boxes and LEDs. And I will say this. Bitcoin - it was he, the old man Bitcoin again rejoiced this technology race. Give a little more time and the chips will be more economical tenfold with the same power as it is now. And this will be just the beginning of the tech race. Competition and market economy are the strongest motivators for humanity.

And the second… The lion’s share of the crypto market capitalization came through electricity and the cost of ASICs, and not through the exchange. This is what I mean when I talk about prime cost.

And one more thing. When I need to measure the potential of cryptocurrency, I just look at the graph of complexity. Where should I look in the case of a POS-coin? :face_with_raised_eyebrow: