Do we see Zcash as MoE?

First time posting here, I love this discussion and wanted to give my 2 cents.

My core thesis is that in modern finance, MoE and SoV are not, and realistically cannot be, the same thing. ZCash’s design choices effectively force it into the SoV bucket, whether we as a community explicitly acknowledge that or not. If that framing is correct, it has important implications for roadmap decisions and project prioritization.


Historically, MoE and SoV were the same, but largely in an era where financial complexity and credit intermediation were limited. As commerce became more prominent, the financial system separated these roles.

A functioning MoE currency moved to a ledger-based system that allows for supply elasticity (primarily through credit expansion and contraction) which is crucial for an MoE as it dampens demand shocks. A SoV on the other hand benefits from inelasticity, as scarcity is the point. But because of this lack of elasticity, volatility becomes the adjustment mechanism, thus it is not just early-stage noise, but structural of the design.

The global MoE today is not the USD but the elastic credit system built on top of it. The Eurodollar system: repos, bank balance sheets, FX, etc. The unit of account becomes stable because supply is allowed to expand and contract. While SoV in the current system include real estate, stocks, treasuries, etc.

From a business operation point of view, MoE is more important that SoV. Why? Credit is unavoidable at scale (CapEx, inventory, payroll) and managing it requires matching cashflows with liabilities and assets. If the two sides of the book are denominated in different units and one side can fluctuate 20-30% per quarter, then the business becomes a trading desk and stops focusing on its original core activity.


Now I’m going to focus on the SoV case. Given that we have a limited supply and enough participants, ZCash is a viable SoV. This comes with a set of properties: it is highly reflexive and sentiment-driven, which means that it will be driven-by macro shocks rather than smoothing them.

As an SoV, the usage is more episodic than operational. What I mean by this is that most individuals and companies will not use it on a daily basis but rather as part of their long-term investment portfolios and capital allocations.

If ZCash keeps an inelastic supply by design, then it has already chosen the SoV path and many MoE-oriented proposals are internally inconsistent with that choice.

The reason I bring this up is because there was a discussion about roadmap in the thread that is relevant. Understanding the situation is the foundation to make better decisions. If SoV is the path, then certain themes become less critical (everyday UX, TX throughput, etc) than others (on/off ramps).

If ZCash does not become a MoE, then acquiring ZCash must be done through exchanges rather than direct payment for goods and services. Thus, on/off ramp availability and their liquidity become central.

With that framing in mind, I favor keeping transparent addresses in ZCash as a pragmatic requirement for a SoV that relies on exchange-based access. Like it or not, most large exchanges are regulated entities and forcing privacy increases compliance risk, increasing the risk of delisting and decreasing liquidity. Liquidity is critical for the SoV use-case. My point of view on this matter can be summarized as:

If Zcash positions itself as a SoV, liquidity and access matter more than transactional privacy for every user, all the time.

From that perspective, investment in DEX infrastructure and deep liquidity might be a higher ROI than trying to optimize ZCash for daily use. I would even put emphasis on DEXes between privacy-first coins.

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Thanks for sharing this, it’s awesome feedback.

I would love to know your opinion on what plans we should make to keep the network secure going forward. Hard work is done on the quantum resistance, but we still have the same issue as bitcoin. We have decreasing inflation and if we go for SoV then we may not get lots of txs fees (something good could happen with ZSAs but we don’t know that).

I’ve suggested demurrage, which seems quite rational to me but not ideal optics if not communicated strategically. But the reality is that demurrage pays validators, so if people stake their tokens, their stake would not get diluted. It’s actually an incentive to participate.

To be honest, I haven’t given enough thought yet to the implications of ZSAs on funding security once subsidies are reduced or expire to give a proper answer. But I will start thinking about that.

But the reality is that demurrage pays validators, so if people stake their tokens, their stake would not get diluted.

This brings two really hot topics to debate: interest rates and taxes.

The reason I say taxes is that in a fixed supply setup, demurrage is effectively a redistribution mechanism: a value transfer from holders to other parties (be those validators, developers, etc).

In the case of a PoW-chain like ZCash, there is no concept of staking. So, the only way to reduce the burden is being a miner (or part of whatever other privileged groups receives the demurrage).

Interest rates in crypto ecosystems is another topic that I don’t see discussed enough. Demurrage can also be seen as a negative interest rate on the assets, allegedly incentivizing spending over holding. But that’s debatable, as it depends on the rates and how they interact with the natural disinflationary rate or appreciation dynamics.

Welcome!

This is an interesting opinion, but I’m not sure I agree

This scenario is precisely why MoE and SoV cannot be separated. Sure, MoE is important to a business, but so is SoV. e.g: SoV enables a business to save for future expenses, such as the purchase of new equipment.

Each of the properties of money are necessary for a functioning economy, and critically, these functions cannot be wholly separated and served by independent assets. Otherwise, as you say, businesses would need to take on the duties of a trading desk.


I’m not saying Zcash can’t aim for SoV. I just don’t believe we can’t/shouldn’t also aim for MoE. IMO we have a unique opportunity to build the most powerful freedom tool in human history (cypherpunk money), and now is not the time to break course and settle for “digital gold"

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I think we’re conflating two different parts of running a business: operations vs long-term capital management. For business operations, what you care about is the MoE and its stability with respect to your liabilities and income flows. You can’t depend on P&L from asset management to pay salaries or services.

To give a concrete example, in my daily life I keep enough USD balances available to cover at least 3 to 6 months of expenses. I wouldn’t keep all my operating capital in something volatile like stocks or crypto, because my operating liabilities (rent, services, groceries) are denominated in USD; I don’t want to risk my rent payment on a market drawdown. My medium-to-long-term capital is deployed in different store-of-value assets, where volatility is acceptable.

My argument is that this separation already exists in practice. At the international level, the Eurodollar system functions as the MoE (and at the local level, it’s typically the domestic currency). That’s the unit used for transactions, accounting, and intermediation. But no sane person or company keeps all their capital as idle balances in checking accounts, because those balances depreciate against goods and services over time. Excess capital is deliberately moved into assets that are better suited to a store-of-value role.

I think we’re actually more aligned here than it may seem prima facie. I fully share the motivation, vision and goal. I’m not arguing against that. I was just stating the fact that given supply inelasticity, it is really hard to escape the SoV use case.

But unfortunately, that’s not the trajectory I see most of crypto taking. “Number go up” relative to the USD has become the objective, when it should be a side-effect, not the goal.

My personal view is that what the world needs is a MoE that is auditable and verifiable at the system level, while keeping individual transactions private between participants. Something people actually use and think in directly, rather than constantly referencing another currency.

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Indeed, we are more aligned than I originally understood!

I will still counter that is a consequence of bad money, and not a necessary result of “modern finance”.

Fiat money is programmed to lose value over time. Good (“hard") money does not have to lose its purchasing power over time, but because we don’t have good money today, businesses and individuals have adapted to only hold as much money as they need to cover operating expenses. Historically, many economies thrived on good hard money (including pre-1971 USA). In those economies it was perfectly reasonable for individuals and businesses to save in that money.

e.g. Why should an ice cream shop owner need to be a savvy investor for them to run a successful business? I know several small business owners who are not savvy investors, and they have been disadvantaged by this. They save USD for equipment maintenance/upgrades, only to find out that savings is insufficient when the time comes. This, I think, is just another angle of the point you make about every business needing to become a trading desk. The ice cream shop owner should not have to think about an investment portfolio to survive… and yet in this economy, they do.

Coming back to this… I agree with your characterization of the economic situation today, but I disagree with the notion that it is a necessary consequence of “modern finance”. Rather, I think it’s an undesirable consequence/symptom of bad money that we have adapted to. But that’s just my opinion :sweat_smile:

Economics debate aside… I agree with your conclusion that we cannot avoid SoV, and that’s awesome. I’m really only here to defend the case for Zcash also being MoE

as lond as zcash is reported to energy( is POW and remains POW) we will have zcash coins with intrinsic value similar to normal cash coins.

actually the coins that cash has in circulation the metal itself values more than the coin itself.

you can keep this in mind when you compare the value of the cash itself and not beeing stable and fluctuates.

as for the privacy…shield-deshield…only using shielding will make real cash and deshielding when you want to.

Electricity bills don’t give coins ‘intrinsic value’.

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I see ZEC as a better SOV than BTC due to its privacy.
I don’t see ZEC and BTC as MoE because transferring private ZEC or swapping private ZEC to stable coins take almost forever, unlike my bank transfers which happen almost instantly.
But in the world of currency debasement and overpriced real estates, financial assets, and BTC, ZEC is the only sane SOV now.