Let’s talk about ASIC mining

15 posts were merged into an existing topic: Zcashs Proof of Work: does it affect Market Value?

like what?
just take an educated guess.

i can see beautiful background, technical, powerful, successful…

this centralisation in few hands, leads to very many problems, but the main is that you do not have a clue about the intensions of miners, who make zcash right now.
they are in control.
and you are completely out of touch.

@nec you are talking to me and @Hannibal at the moment. Neither of us work for Electric Coin Company and we have no power over the POW. So don’t address the issue to us, we can’t do anything about it.

uhh, sorry, i was referring to you as a part of foundation.
guess you are only the moderator.
sorry.

I understand your frustrations. Even the Zcash Foundation has no power to change the POW. Perhaps in the future when there is another implementation of the core zcashd software the Community could choose to use it over the current version. But for now ECC holds all the cards.

Josh mentioned this topic (Zcashd not ASICs) in his recent talk a the MIT Bitcoin expo; it’s worth watching: Josh Cincinnatis talk at MIT

not even the foundation in control?

who is?

is this person aware of the post-asic situation on the market?

The Zcash Company (now known as Electric Coin Company) has been the developers of the core software zcashd since Zcash started.

If you watch that video, Josh speaks about how the Foundation is working with the Company to share power, but as it stands right now ECC still calls the shots on what goes into thier software releases.

Monero has put a lot of energy into attempted ASIC resistance with little success thus far. It’s actually a large benefit for us that they are going through this experiment so we don’t have to… but let’s be clear, what they are doing is pretty dangerous for Monero.

The ASICs being developed for Monero are unlikely be disclosed or sold to the public. They could be created by a single manufacturer that ends up having 80% hashrate and could potentially 51% attack Monero, or worse. It seems highly unlikely that this race will end with actual ASIC resistance given the economics of mining and a highly adaptable miner manufacturing environment.

GPU miners ignore this danger because they mine and sell for profit, as can be expected. The more coins mineable by GPUs, the more potential value their farm will have. It’s only natural for them to post pro-GPU mining quasi-arguments, ignoring the real danger of what they are advocating for.

In retrospect, my posts over the past few months in this thread could be characterized as a pro-ASIC, but I’m actually not necessarily pro-ASIC (I have a few but not many) or anti-GPU (I own a medium-sized GPU setup). I’m pro-security first and pro-fairness second - as much fairness as is possible.

If ASIC resistance is actually proven to be possible we should seriously consider it. That said, it won’t necessarily be as fair as we think. Consider that there are massive GPU farms capable of overwhelming networks. Throughout this bear market large entities have been buying GPUs from smaller farm liquidations. Bear markets centralize hashrate for all coins, but especially GPUs where more value can be recouped.

Overall, my current sentiment is that PoW should be phased out entirely for something more fair without compromising security.

Much risk, Monero takes.
-Yoda

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Well nobody could come up with a better system yet… sure they’re trying, but PoS has it’s own issues.
PoW with GPU mining is fair enough and security can be improved, easier to solve than PoS problems.

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Seems XMR doing very good at scheduling ASIC-resistance roadmap…

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Monero team fork xmr is not for xmr price.
They fork away from ASIC to keep xmr decentralization、privacy and security.
They do what they promise in xmr white paper to show they are trustable,just like their product is trustable too.
No liar in Monero team , so they don’t have to scam GPU miner they will make ASIC resistant in whte paper.

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And by large I mean large, 100 GPU in the Zcash filed wasn’t even a big farm, just a large hobby farm.
I refering to the 1000 plus farms, and there were several.

i witnessed on release of Grin and Beam how on their forums the most dicussed topic was how to drop them fastest at best prices. Holders are even called idiots and similars for not selling immediatly while the price was high … As a non miner today i personally don’t make any differences anymore, from my experience POW is designed to dump coins today with in most cases electricity eating 50-100+% of the mined coins…

They discovered the asics a bit late, but i still would call it a success to be honest. They took immediatly action against it and in future i’am pretty sure they will spot asics faster and/or fork more frequently. While i agree that forking is a bit dangerous it seems they will get used to it and mostly become the best fork team and experience on that field.

Interesting point and it was clear that in future asics for forking coins won’t be disclosed to public, or at least there was a good chance this will happen as it’s just logical.
But this is not only limited to forking coins and could as well happen to ZEC as well. We wouldn’t even spot the undisclosed asics.
Yesterday, just out of curiousity and i again went to the Bitmain page, only 3 miners available, 2 of them for SHA256, no other asics offered which makes me think that they just don’t sell more exotic miners anymore to public, including the equihash asics.
In theory someone could build a new better equihash asic, make a big farm in a low electricity price region and more or less easyly take over the network, or at least a real big portion, unoticed by anyone today.

Actually in my opinion it doesn’t matter if it’s gpu or asic. It won’t be fair either way. The winner will always be the low energy cost miner in china, former soviet republics and some other few regions. That’s it. All the other discussion and arguments are mostly to still make some bucks until the least miner over a given electricity price level is forced out…

Not different from asic farms that buy off smaller asic farms hardware even within china itself. There are regions in china that even there can’t compete with the lower electricity price regions in china… What’s left for the most parts of the world, lol.

This sounds right and everybody thinking unbiased on that matter should came to the same conclusion. POW is totally flawed today, absolutly unfair, full of security risks and way to many attack. vectors. And as a bonus drawing out the crypto money while sponsoring hardware and electricity companies which make the biggest share in mining anyway. Absolute nonsens nowadays. .

And to add a personal note. It is a big mistake that ZEC isn’t working, researching, whatever some of the currrent POS consensus types and models. This would at least given some incentive to hodl ZEC and counter at least to some level the huge inflation we have.
Neither will ZEC be innovative when it uses some day a POS like design, neither was it designed for the right moment to counter inflation. When we adopt some day POS the inflation mostly is way lower and the dev reward has run out as well.

Really? There are top notch POS designs dude and many more new approaches are coming. It’s a mistake to think POS is just POS. There are a lot of very different approaches and designs in POS. Some have issues, some are top notch, some have limits, some are even not released yet.

And you are wrong with POW problems can be solved easier. With POW the problems literaly can’t be solved, leave alone the fact that they are 10x more than under POS…

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I am reminded of a post about a year ago of Zooko saying - I’m also skeptical that it is actually possible to prevent ASIC mining. We tried, two years ago, despite several experts telling me that they thought it was impossible.

I then wanted to look at XMR Fork History because of ASIC’s

April 2018 was the first ASIC fork with roughly a 50% drop in hashrate

Now in March of 2019 - it went from 989 million to 145 million and 86% drop / decrease

So Whatever XMR did in April of 2018 didn’t work, and there was even more ASIC’s on their network than before. Also, to my knowledge, there were no XMR ASIC or FPGA devices for sale on market, which means this was probably a private venture.

Did XMR fork for ASIC resistance- yes they did

I know there was software updates along with the ASIC brick fork, but how much time and money has been spent by them for this?

Did the first time work, no… and IMO the second and third time will not either, especially if they are on an 11 month ASIC brick schedule.

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have no clue why the GPU people in this thread won’t accept; with current technology there’s no stopping ASICs. this really isn’t a debate. if your coin’s worth something; somebody will build an ASIC for it. ZEC’s top R&D goals should be focused on scale/fungibility. XMR has not found a way to defeat ASICs even though they put a ton of energy+time into battling ASICs. now people cannot buy XMR ASICs because ASIC devs need to be secretive. if XMR eventually figures out how to stop ASICs; perhaps ZEC could do the same. until that happens - you’re crying over spilt milk.

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funny point of view.

if someone else finds a way - we can do it.

until that - shut up.

very progressive and inspiring.

i think you fellows are the part of the problem.

i think you do not understand what asics, as they are now, doing to zcash value.

we should have forked the day asics were announced.

naming people who did not lose their sanity just will not help.

better go back, to the moon.

they should’ve reinstated the “slow mining start”, and evaluated longer, but as-i-said - crying over spilt milk

executing funny explanations and absurd resistance levels in to the moon thread more reffers to crying over the spilt milk, imo