It seems odd that every solution he’s proposing involves allowing the ASICs to mine, either in two separate chains or in a dual algorithm chain.
It also seems odd that they are flapping their hands over this when Monero, a much bigger coin by marketcap, pulled off an anti-ASIC fork effortlessly.
There are no perfect solution to “any problem”, but your trying to force your perspective while ignoring everything else in the process Boxalex. As it stands now, anyone can mine be it via a CPU or a GPU. You can mine with the GPU in your computer, or slowly add cards and build a “rig”. That’s the existing dynamic. Your trying to prove the point that ASIC can replace and it won’t be as negative as I, and others, keep pointing out. You can claim “Nothing will make you happy” all you would like. But at the end of the day you fail to show that you can introduce ASIC into this space without forcing out a portion, if not a large portion, of the existing community.
What you don’t understand is it doesn’t effect me so much. I’ve not so heavily invested I’m “Rekt” as they say. I can survive either way, but I won’t stand here and let GPU miners, especially the smaller guys, get forced out, called greedy, “can’t make you happy”, by the Pro-Asic crowd. You want to have a debate on the economics of it all, that’s great we can do it all day. But you better come prepared to show how you can be just as inclusive as the current mining dynamic is today, or your going to get push back all day long. That’s the long and the short of it all really. Come with a plan to keep the community involved doing what they do, and I won’t bat an eye. Otherwise get used to me being so “unreasonable”, because it’s not going to stop anytime soon.
Actually i do not want to to get my perspective, this is the biggest difference btw. me and most others here, including you. In 90% of the posts i make i try to correct false, wrong information, nothing else. You even won’t find a single post where is said Asics MUST be in, is the ONLY solution, whatever. Check them, you won’t find any for sure.
I’am just trying to correct missleading posts, calculations, assumptions, rumours, myths, whatever that are based on nothing else than wild guesses.
Where can you see in my posts that i want someone to take over my personal opinion? You won’t find any such posts, so mostly you are trying to stamp your own practices and that of many forum members here on me, but this isn’t holding again.
What makes it even more wonder is that it is not wished, appreciated when someone corrects wrong, missleading posts with wrong data?!?! In other forums you get a nice thank you if you correct something wrong, if you set the numbers right, if someone made a mistake in his calculation, here you are an outsider, which again let’s me believe that the truth/true is not wished if it does not fit into gpu miners anti-asic agenda.
About your 2nd point. I don’t know. It’s a business nowadays, not anymore some hobbiest cpu mining like 5 years ago. Time changes, rules changes, competition changes. Everybody in a business has to do what he thinks he has to do. I’am not the one (see point 1) that will tell others what to do, surely not.
I doubt you would be satisfied even than. Having so many demands can’t hold in reality. There are so many flaws and unlogical wishes that it’s even science fiction. But even if your demands would be in place you (the gpu miner) would find another one.
How does one take that then? That was part of a response you made to me when I was talking about if ASIC were as accessible as GPU/CPU, and there was real competition, this would not even be a discussion. I’m living in a fantasy world, never satisfied, and my illogical wishes are pure science fiction. I’m demanding because I’m a GPU miner (You go out of your way to point out that I specifically am a GPU miner). Everything but called me greedy so I will retract that. Btw…contrary to that lovely picture of how my thoughts aren’t rooted in reality…this all exists today…with CPUs and GPUs. You blatantly tried to discredit my post about what it would take for ASICs to be openly accepted…which is for them to be as accessible as the current platform, which they are NOT by any stretch of the imagination. Instead the are dominated by a single company, nothing in the sense of a real competitor. Of those competitors, how many are in China again? The same country that several posts regarding interference by said government could be a serious problem??
Now please tell me again how that didn’t happen /tea sip
One additional edit:
Tell me how ASIC isn’t going to royal screw guys like this?? We all know of situations like this, and this isn’t the only one is it?
Do we just say “Oh well, sucks you can’t get an ASIC…later Bro!!”
I get your point but you didn’t get mine. While you compare here 2, only 2 gpu producers for which it took ages to get where they are you are asking for something similar in lightspeed to happen with Asics.
You can not have a competition at the point someone is the forrunner, impossible. Hence i called it science fiction. How to call it else after your demand of one asic equal asic provider in france, one in the USA, one there, one here?
I even would say that the asic competition is allready bigger than the gpu competition by the way.
And my comment that you are never satisfied with a given answer where i proof you wrong is that you just come up with the next thing, just again to be proofen that your calculation can not hold what you promised.
But that is some kind of correction what i make. I never said and never will say something like “Give up gpu minning”, “you are stupid”, “you do not understand”, “asics is the only future”, “only this or that”. Nope, won’t going to happen, sorry mate.
While most of you guys have a hardliner stance i’am not the one that will take the same on the other side.
Did you even follow what i was called so far in this thread just to give correct technically some arguments?
Bitmain employee, paid by bitmain, idiot, dump, about 10x liar, naive, whatever not. And that for what? Just for trying to be fair and move wrong assumptions, guesses, right?
P.S. I have no agenda with you, i even admit that i can follow all your posts and have sympaties for your (yes, something a non hardliner easy can admit!) and i have no bad intentions against you. So just in case i have offended you somehow unintentionally or due my bad English and wrong choosen words, sorry!
I got your point. It took years for the CPU/GPU market to get where it is, didn’t even argue with that. However, if you think we should just let everything slide back to single sourced hardware I fail to see how that is beneficial to the community. Who does that benefit? When I say competition I mean competition. Company A makes a ASIC that does hashrate A, Company B has one that does hashrate B, and Company C has one that does hashrate A-B ( in between). One is leading the market, so the other two either step up their game and catch up, lower their prices to be competitive, or BOTH. That’s business in a non monopoly. You think the Vega 56 is better than the 1080TI? But How about the 580 versus the 1070? But competition is fierce between the two rivals, innovations keep coming, prices are competitive going up and down based on demands. That’s competition. Eventually AMD will roll out a killer chipset again, and they will lead, then Nvidia will come out with an even BETTER chipset, and back and forth it goes…just like it does with Intel and AMD CPUs.
Show me anything even CLOSE to that in the ASIC world. All you have managed to demonstrate is they may actually have a bigger monopoly than even I thought they had.
Your argument would be absolutly valid if we where allready 20 years in crypto asics competition. We are not. All i see there is competetion (i bet james comes now to say it’s fake competition, lol). And all i say is that you ask too much right now. It needs time to catch the forrunner, which bitmain is. It’s even possible none will manage, but there is competition and only time will show how will catch up and who will fail.
And i said it bevor, the environment that is created by fork calls is slowing down the competition, not bitmain. So mostly with many actions you ask you are hurting the uprising competition, not bitmain.
Now, as you said, maybe AMD will roll out a chipset that for some reason would be super mega hyper ultra effective on SHA256, should it be “banned”, no way, it’s competition, if it’s better it’s just that, better. If my bet was on asics, my poor, there is, or at least there should no such things like “this is my market, my algo”.
Are you kidding us? The guy who is short on money will NEVER start with 1080ti’s. There are more reasonable options to get you going with GPU’s.
Once again, this argument is pointless. ASICs do not bring ANYTHING that could improve zcash stance in any way. They are not needed. They are not any progress, they are the result of a pure greed.
So I should wait for 20 more years and see? Sure…let’s give Bitmain the time it needs to establish full domination everywhere. Just let them take over every communities hard work and force you to play by their rules, or get out. All I’m hearing from you is, it’s too early to judge us, but just let us do it anyways…it is all for the best. Who is asking for a lot again? Your literally asking for us to scrap a working dynamic for chaos in the hopes that maybe, in 20 years, it will be as competitive as what you already have…or maybe Bitmain just does what Bitmain does, and crushes all the competition fairly and unfairly because China doesn’t play by the same rules.
I think we can stop discussing, in the FPGA topic james just announced:
I should add that the only reason we’re still debating this is that Zooko – for whatever reason – doesn’t want to fork. The second he agrees to work on tweaking the proof of work algorithms, ASICs are finished.
So the Asic discussing should end here i think. Doesn’t make sense to continue it after the necessary steps have been taken to keep them out 
@Zooko by himself really can’t make that call one way or another to be honest. At least that is what we were told. ZcashCo and the Foundation have a say in this as well. I have seen no such declaration by anyone in a official capacity from ZcashCo so…
Actually it seems you even do not need anymore one. GPU’s win in this round. James allready announced that the Asics are finished, means GPU miners can celebrate
IF Zooco makes a declaration or not, you have your asics restistance allready.
I don’t think he can make such a claim by himself, unless he is representing a statement from the Foundation and ZcashCo?? I didn’t read it like that. He doesn’t appear to be a team member…so yeah…he can’t make that decision at all. What he did say is the second @zooko decides (that’s not actually a true statement) to fork ASIC are done.
How did you read it? In my opinion this “Asics are finished” does not leave much room for any other conclusion than the prepared or tweak in mind will stop the currnent Asics.
I read it as some bypassing Zooko actually in the meaning of after he does not want to fork we will just do it with algo tweaking after he agreed to that as we have allready an idea how this keeps asics out.
It wouldn’t be the first thing i missread, so in case i have missreaded it, correct me please how you read it?!
Maybe in full context it brings more light into the case:
Yes, it’s an arms race. And guess what is a part of that arms race? GPU miners forking to get rid of ASICs. Just as it’s Bitmain’s right to make more powerful ASICs, it’s also our right to adjust the proof of work algorithm to make it more difficult for them to take over. GPU miners have the upper hand because it’s much easier to fork the algorithm than create new ASICs.
I should add that the only reason we’re still debating this is that Zooko – for whatever reason – doesn’t want to fork. The second he agrees to work on tweaking the proof of work algorithms, ASICs are finished.
I see what you are saying now. That wouldn’t be Zcash then, unless the ZcashCo agrees (they own the name, the ticker, etc) forcing a fork like that would create “something else” that shares the same chain genesis block and a chain up until the fork. I’m not saying that couldn’t happen, but anyone who tried to say that “that” was Zcash would be straight up lying.
i have edit my last post and added the full context to it, you may want to look into it.
I do not think it’s a fork, but some tweaking to avoid the fork but with the result in being asic resistant. As said, that’s what i get out of it.
I hear you, guess we will see what it actually is in time. I don’t think it’s a declaration though.
No, it’s not a declaration, obviously not, lol It’s just a taster what’s coming and allready decided :-)))
I wish I could be as confident as you seem to be, but I just don’t sense any decision coming yet in one direction or another? Am I missing a post somewhere that gives this more weight??
If you guys can’t read between the lines in zook is post.
Sure seems to me… he basically said no asic resistance.
If the zcash foundation were to say fork, then go for it.
That’s what it sounds like to me.
I fear at the end of this we will have two coins.