Let’s talk about ASIC mining

I’m not saying one way or the other Mrmags, but it will take more than @Zooko to make that decision either way. All I was saying was nothing official to date as far as I know.

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Nope, other than several proposals on the gifthub how to change, fork, whatever there is nothing else.

This Asics are finished just doesn’t leave any room for any other interpretation. It’s coming from the kitchen where it’s cooked or it wouldn’t contain the tweaking algos…

However, i’am pretty confident it is as i think it is. I take it sportsmenlike without bad feelings :slight_smile:
And at least me when purchasing the Z9 was aware of the risk, so i’am not using the “whining/crying about” phrase :slight_smile:

I totally can be wrong, but the way i see it is just that zookca has been bypassed (too say it diplomaticly) with his agreement to the algo tweaking that mostly has the same effect as a fork, or better results in the same, asic resistance, or highly likely to be asis resistance.

All i hope is that Zcash doesn’t regret that step at some time at a later point. I doubt bitmain will again take such risk to consider Zcash worth the affords to make some specialized hardware. What’s left for some newcomer or runner up producer.

If the community has choosen such path, so it be, nothing someone can do. After asic resistance is the main goal of the community and Zcash, why not. It has it’s good side for the gpu miners here, no doubt and nothing bad at it of course. If it’s the right decision, nobody knows, i have my personal doubts that this doesn’t matter anyway. Watching how monero’s hashrate goes daily further down (they are allready on december 2017 level now) doesn’t make me believe it’s really the right path and direction, but as i allways add in all fairness, i could be totally wrong of course, time will show.

While i personally have no problem with the 1x Z9 i purchased even if it mines 1USD at kommodo or whatever, i think i will initiate a poll on bitcointalk with the other Z9, X3 miners to ask bitmain NOT to release any further asic’s if it is not somehow garanteed that they will mine on the advertised coins. If they can not garantee it, better they mine for themself to be honest. It’s not about me as i’am aware the risk and with just one piece, nothing lost at all, but about many others that eventually have to suffer from this. Than at least the average joe asic miner hasn’t to deal with forks, tweaks, similars…

I was never involved in any such discussion when it comes to making a desicion while in crypto business, and one lesson i have personally learned that i will be more cautious with projects that are truely and purely decentralized. While it has for sure a lot of pros i have my dobuts it will work on a really successfull project when it goes up. Too much personal interests that stand bevor technical advance versus the competion. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. I think a bit more centralized projects just advance faster without wasting the needed resources on such things that someone can be call a free market, evolution, advance, whatever, or of course oppose them within it’s right as well.

Here a list of many privacy coins and platforms that should be the true competitors for the project, just as a reminder :slight_smile:

Coins/Currency
Monero (XMR): https://getmonero.org
Dash (DASH): https://www.dash.org
Verge (VXG): https://vergecurrency.com
PIVX (PIVX): https://pivx.org
Zcash (ZEC): https://z.cash
NavCoin (NAV): https://navcoin.org
Hcash (HSR): https://h.cash
CloackCoin (CLOAK): https://www.cloakcoin.com
Zcoin (XZC): http://zcoin.io
StealthCoin (XST): https://www.stealthcoin.com/
Hush (HUSH): https://myhush.org
Crave Project (CRAVE): https://craveproject.net
Bulwark (BWK): https://bulwarkcrypto.com
InnovaCoin (INN): https://innovacoin.info
Zoin (ZOI): http://zoinofficial.com
Phore (PHR): https://phore.io
Pura (PUR): https://pura.one/
SpectreCoin (XSPEC): https://spectreproject.io/
Sumokoin (SUMO): https://www.sumokoin.org/
DeepOnion (ONION): https://deeponion.org/
Grin (http://grin-tech.org/)
Aeon (AEON): http://www.aeon.cash/
Bytecoin (BCN): https://bytecoin.org/
SolarisCoin (XLR): https://solariscoin.com/
Pure (PURE): https://purealt.org/
Digital Note (XDN)
Shield (XSH)
SagaCoin (SAGA)
Electroneum (ETN)

Platforms & networks
Enigma (ENG): https://www.enigma.co/
Aion (AION): https://aion.network/
Zencash (ZEN): https://zensystem.io/
Obsidian (ODN): https://obsidianplatform.com/
Komodo (KMD): Komodo Platform Blockchain - Home of AtomicDEX and KMD Coin

With this said, i think i will spent less time on this forum from now as it was extremely time intensive and at least after i know what is going to happen, even if not allready annouced officialy, i have again more free time to take care of my little business :slight_smile:

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While on bitcointalk discussing the Asic resistance stance of zcash a member posted this:

interesting parts of it:

Starkware

  • Our investors include Pantera, Naval Ravikant, MetaStable, Floodgate, Polychain, Vitalik Buterin (Ethereum), Zcash Co., Arthur Breitman (Tezos), Da Hongfei (NEO), Bitmain, Elad Gil, Fred Ehrsam, Linda Xie, and others.
  • StarkWare will develop a full proof stack: software and hardware to support fast and reliable generation and verification of computational integrity proofs for general computations.
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Yeah I saw this a day or two ago Shawn or Zooko had posted it in another thread I think? I saw Bitmain listed on an investor but resisted the temptation to make the association on the current debate. Is there a link, who really knows, this is separate from ZcashCo really, but involves two of the scientists…all you can do is speculate about the association really.

https://www.starkware.co/ ???

Thanks, I meant a link between Zooko’s stance and this new venture with Bitmain as a backer. I will admit, it does seem somewhat suspect this is happening right now.

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Seriously, slowly but surely i’am getting more and more confused, loosing even some faith in this project, let alone/beside the asic discussion.

From what i got so far, the Zcash Foundation is anti-bitmain, but praises this project which they have together with Bitmain. Seriously, i do not get it …

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As i lack some English knowledge, could you do me a favor and take a look into that Starkware project and if it’s about POS as i think it is?

@boxalex zkSnarks require a trusted setup, whereas zkStarks do not.

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From what I read the purpose is to build out ZkStarks which resolve one of the weaknesses of Snarks…the need for a trusted setup. ZKStarks does NOT require this, so no need to “trust” a group of people to perform the ceremony to generate toxic waste shards etc. All of that requirement is no longer necessary. From their it looks like they will be working on building out applications utilizing Starks in a scalable way. That’s the high view of it, you would need one of the team to explain any more of what they are looking to do. What strikes me as odd, is why did this go out to another entity, and not stay withing ZcashCo or the Zcash Foundation?? Was it for a lack of resources (Capital)? Or was it to ensure that whatever is developed can be easily integrated into any project…not just Zcash?? I see Vitalik is Involved as well (Eth Founder). This should be an interesting venture…although I don’t much care for Bitmain being involved (corporate Politics bias on my part).

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Thank you very much for the detailed explaination, it’s more than appreciated.

But exactly the Ehtereum part made me think that it’s a step toward POS or part of the puzzle for POS, but i have not enough technical knowledge to proof that thought. Time will show.

That wouldn’t surprise me at some point down the line. At some point something has to assume the roll of validating transactions and supporting the network as Zcash has a finite coin supply of 21 million. Proof Of Stake would be a valid choice when the time comes.

ok, let’s say 5 batchs = 500 Msol/s added, that means 50% of hashpower by ASICs, 50% by GPUs.
Is it a big deal ? I don’t think so.

I keep seeing alot of misinformation about Monero and whats happened after the fork. The hashrate isnt falling. From what I can see the hashrate has been pretty consistant since the fork, its not dropping daily.

And how much hashrate is enough, or not enough in your opinion then? Because the hashrate dropped a little bit, you dont think forking away from ASICs was the right direction? Half the hashrate of Monero was already ASICs, and they were not even released to the public yet. How many are already on Zcash…too many.

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When ASIC’s use 1/10 the power cost of GPU miners, GPU miners will not be able to cover power cost and that will be that so the ratio will be more like 90% ASIC to 10 % GPU where the GPU miners remaining will be those not paying electricity cost for what ever reason or speculators.

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Problem in ASIC is because same people who sell you ASIC MINE WITH THEM!

This ASIC dont cost them more then 200$

And they sell you for 2000$…and with shipping ,import tax will cost me 3000$

So how can i COMPETE with them when they cost is 200$ per unit and mine is 3000$ per unit?!
And they can mine instantly and i have to wait 2-3 months after i pay it.

And as you can see YOU CANT COMPETE EVER!

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Yes, a fundamental problem with the ASIC industry is that the companies selling the ASICs to customers are also directly competing with the customers.

I can’t even begin to describe the economic inefficiencies of this model.

GPU mining does not have this problem, and it’s very easy to preserve GPU mining. It’s absurd that we are even entertaining the thought of allowing ASICs to take over Zcash mining.

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Missinformation? Hashrate not falling? Lol, it’s falling since 24.04.2018 each day …

This is a daily network hashrate drop for me, not sure what it’s for you after it goes steadyly from 541M down to todays 426M, lose of 20-25% in just 3 weeks and i doubt it will stop here …

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What does this have to do with ASICs?

Network hashrates fluctuate all the time. The recent decrease (after the big ASIC purge) in Monero might be because Etehreum became more profitable or because miners are beginning to quit. This has nothing to do with GPUs vs ASICs.

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I agree to the possible reasons, just logical that after only gpu’s are left on the network that if it drops the reason is there somewhere, lol.

Than again, what i have heared from some insiders is that the Monero devs are not happy about it. I guess it’s because of 2 reasons. 1.) They did not await such a drastic drop and 2.) They hope they will have more loyal gpu miners and/or attract more for their hard anti-asic resistance.

And this has to do with Asics now. The whole Monero issue has to do with Asics actually as they should be closly watched just for that Fork reason to gain information.

We will talk again in latest 2 weeks after they droped below 400M … :slight_smile: (Just my prediction)

P.S.: From a Traders point of view using technical graphs i would say i see a clear downtrend, not just some fluctation…

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