I guess we need actual math to show the probability of how much money is to be made here ( attack vs no attack):
Say they are skimming and getting 5% (which i really doubt, we are not talking nanopool or dwarfpool here):
that means, out of the 270 Mh/s they are getting 13.5 Mh/s. That means, they are effectively mining 54000 ZCash coins per year. Thats just one year only. Multiply that by the number of years its gonna take to mine the entire supply of zcash.
Sorry my friend but no! No way in hell a business like that would risk hundreds of millions income per year (including risking other pools of theirs dying due to the reputation scandal) so that it can attack their their Top profitable coin once.
Thats a good a point for sure, and is also a reason why its a good idea to distribute mining power over many pools but thats not something the ZCash network can force the pool to do on the fly. All coins are bound to pools and the ecosystem is working fine ( maybe not ideal but still working well). No reason to create panic yet.
Although the idea of including the mining software into the node and having each single miner no matter how small become a full mining node seems very interesting. Sadly i don’t know much about the code yet to judge how easy it can be implemented or how easy other solutions could be figured out.
Lets get back to the point of this thread though. The danger of ASICs is real, knocking on the doors, and is easily defeated with the right set of mind and already existing tools at the hands of the current ZCash developers (even with one of them clearly disriguarding the opinions and arguments of the miners who supported his coin to the top and made him rich in the first place).
Lets not forget, thats what the ZCash network promised, thats what this thread is about, and thats why miners who invested thousands and millions into GPUs want.
Under that hypothetical, sure. There are situations in volatile markets, and in another hypothetical instance where Flypool saw their hashrate shrinking (potential loss of market power), where they might consider extreme actions. You’re situation assumes they will have guaranteed income for years. The history of mining pools with other coins shows that pool turnover rate is pretty high.
Overall, I agree that it’s an unlikely scenario.
I’m still not convinced that ASICs are a threat other than devaluing my GPUs.
How about you do some research on the subject first or actual calculations?
Clearly you didn’t watch the documentary with actual climate scientists because you think the argument is about weather climate is changing and not weather the change is done by humans of if so by how much percentage.
Again, watch the documentary, do the calculations and see that CO2 produced by humans accounts for 0.00152% of the atmosphere (sorry its in german but you can translate on google for sure):
So yeah, i guess thats gonna change the entire climate of the earth because Al-Gore said so or because you read it on a government website called “intergovernmental panel on climate change”
Here is another masterpeice since you mention that fake 99% number again
hahaha what? thats a nice low blow there buddy. What does my date of joining this form have to do with any of my arguments? the fact that you bring that up as “me having an agenda” is very shady there buddy.
Never the less, OFF COURSE i have an agenda. I am a miner with +90,000€ invested into mining ZCash ( a coin i believe in that promised ma ASIC resistance from the get go), and when i hear about such stupidity of surrendering to ASIC being up for debate, off course i will create an account and voice my opinion. Or do you think i should just throw it all away?
I respect keeping on topic. But what is happening with XMO is the result of a hard fork due to Asics. At least that is my understanding of what happened with new XMR and the old XMO. So it kind of is relevant to zcash doing a hard fork?
I don’t think this %70 down is result of ASIC resistance or ASIC support. XMR is original chain and ofcourse any other fork will dump in value because XMR team is not behind it.
I agree. That is why i keep commenting again because the discussion is being purposefully linked away.
Either in direction of “POS” or “Pools X is dangerous”.
I got a bit carried away with the climate change discussion i admit, but it was a counter argument to the “lets just do POS” argument by root.
thats the old chain, it is suppose to lose value and die. ASIC mining pool is trying to keep it alive though, which goes to show what kind of power ASIC can have…
You may right in your anti-ASIC argue to attract more people but PoS brings much more people (more fair distribution), Many people live in high electricity price areas (like me), many people always travel and can’t stay at home to manage GPUs (like me), many people don’t have enough knowledge to make GPU minings rigs (me again). with PoS more people can involved in the project. I really love to have some part of Zcash’s future but with current mining system I’m totally out.
ASIC resistance or ASIC of Zcash doesn’t have ANY effect on my real life, I just said my opinion and I don’t want miners mislead zcash team because they have some sort of profit in ASIC resistance system. If ASIC is catastrophe in Zcash proof it don’t rely on “Zcash promised ASIC resistance” it remind me religious logic.
If you only care about POS so that you can also get into mining (GPU mining is just as easy btw and needs less money to start), then go to the POS VS POW threads and post there, not here.
If you truley cared about the future of Zcash and its value, you should be the first one defending the miners point of view and requesting ASIC resistance, because it has proved to you several times in this thread that miners are what keeps the network alive ( basic crypto beginner info) and that a strong community and unbroken promises is what allows a coin to survive the test of time (look at what happened to BTC when they broke their promises and no longer followed the white paper, a huge split happen, Bitcoin Cash was created to stick to the original value). We don’t want that in ZCash, we want our coin to survive, stay decentralized and accessible to any one.
[Moderation edit by @daira: unproductive and combative paragraph about “shill[ing] for bitmain” deleted.]
Do you honestly think people who do not mine are more concerned about electricity consumption of a coin as to whether or not they adopt that coin?
Also, the same problem can occur with POS as it does with ASIC based cryptos.
What do I mean by that statement?
Those with BIG MONEY can hoard large sums of a POS coin and have controlling interest in that coin. They can make more profit that others by sheer volume of the POS coin they own. They can control master nodes [If any], etc…
ZEC needs to come up with another means of ATTRACTING new users to ADOPT their coin if they want serious adoption to come to fruition. The way I see it, it’s pretty much a “currency” for now. It’s not a contract coin like Ethereum where ICO’s can be created and draw a vast number of users to adopt it.
It sounds like you’ve chosen the wrong coin if you want POS. You simply need to get involved with Ethereum. It’s more your fit. If you don’t see (understand) this, you’ll learn the hard way by leaving your capital in a coin you want to go POS but will not do so in the near future.
I have no problem whatsoever with ZCash going POS. They can do so. Perfectly fine by me. I’m simply pointing out it needs to offer much more than what it does currently in order to attract MASS adoption like Ethereum does with POS that’s soon to come.
As long as ZCash is not POS, it would behove the developers to remain ASIC resistant. Otherwise, adoption will slow to a crawl. Because the only ones using it will be speculators and large ASIC mining farms. The likely hood of it being used everyday in retail shops, etc… will be FAR AWAY in the future. Other crypto “currencies” who understand what I’m discussing will advance at a faster pace.
Don’t believe me? Let’s all sit back and watch over the next few years if the ZCash developers allow ASIC’s to take hold. I’m referring to developers of a crypto CURRENCY [Not token] who intend for their crypto to be used AS A CURRENCY; not a token. ZCash is a crypto CURRENCY (coin); not a token. There is a difference.
I believe in ZCash as well. However, if I were to believe in it from a POS perspective, it’s quite obvious ZCash would need to attract more “adopters” via another MAJOR utility like Ethereum does. Which is contracts with ICO creation for example. However, you want to act like you could not understand my explanation of this in my previous post. You said it wasn’t “logical” when it was certainly logical.
You’re simply hoping for POS on the wrong coin and fail to publicly acknowledge this fact. Instead, you continuously embrace yourself with these nonsensical arguments in regards to POS with ZCash when it is FAR from going POS.
ZCash began as a coin that was NOT PRE MINED for a reason. Which was to ATTRACT MINERS. They also wanted it to be resistant to centralization of ASIC mining. Hence the requirement for large amounts of memory in their algorithm to potentially be ASIC resistant. ZCash began as a coin geared for miners with decentralized mining in the forefront of it’s White Paper. Bottom line, ZCash was created and geared for decentralized mining.
I’ll say again, If you want a POS coin, buy some Ethereum and/or Cardano and leave the POW coins to us miners. You’ll be alright…
lordfeo10m
Because. I believe in Zcash (+bitcoin) and NOT other coins , I’m not like people just looking for whatever-coin to have profit.
Go ahead and try to attract people to a crypto without the opportunity for PROFIT and see how that goes. There is PROFIT to be made in POS and PROFIT to be made in POW. Those who want PROFIT in POS should go to a POS coin such as ETH or ADA. IF you want profit in POW, buy you some ASIC’s and mine Bitcoin or buy you some NVIDIA GPU’s and mine ZEC. It’s that simple.
The guy is clearly a shill sent here to create confusion. No real person on earth can have this much difficulty in understanding logical statements that has been presented to him.
I think you should stop wasting your time and let the admins do something about him because he keeps stirring shit up and creating confusion talking about POS in the exact thread where an admin just warned of this behavior.
Do you know what the ethereum founder just said about POS? He is thinking to set it so that the min buying to do the work will be 1000 eth. Ok that at current prices would mean a person has to have 386,000 us dollars to be part of the pos. At its top more than 1.4 million to participate in the pos. Sorry but that will price about 99% of miners out of the game.
I don’t give up to your fallacies guys. you clearly mislead zcash about ASIC due to your personal profit, you can call me confused but it does not change the fact.
Another reason for GPU miners to leave ETH alone and support ZEC.
I would certainly be appreciative to see developers understand everyone else using and/or mining their coins are not stupid.
If developers want to create a POS coin that will attract many by BEING FAIR TO ALL, they would allow the ability for accumulated coins to do POS work to be fair to all.
If developers want to create a POW coin that will attract many miners to secure the network, they would do so by making it ASIC resistant and maintaining that resistance to secure the network.
If developers want to create a POW coin that will attract speculators, they should begin that coin WITHOUT PRE MINING. This makes it fair to all who will speculate.
