i’m just a lurker, and my english is not as good as others, if i may i want to ask you to ‘step back’ for now, you might have a point but i think it is not the time or the place yet to put it in the discussion (personal opinion).
i’ve been lurking for few days and since i saw you arguing and looks so hard to understand what others said here, i saw you as the one misleading the discussion here (personal opinion too).
i’m no one, ignore as you like tho.
lurk mode:on
ROFL…
Lordfeo, you are “confused” and I’m sure the developers of ZCash are smart enough to avoid being “mislead” about ASIC’s.
Bottom line is SOMEONE achieves “personal profit.” Either it will be LARGE CENTRALIZED ASIC FARMS or more decentralized and distributed GPU farms. Your logic is to allow Bitmain to come in for THEIR “personal profit” and gain control over the network. Your ultimate logic is for ZCash to go POS. If that was their intent, they should have done so from the beginning. BUT did the developers do that? No! Did the developers mention doing this in the near future? No!
The ZCash white paper actually promised to remain ASIC resistant. All of us GPU miners who have supported ZEC from the beginning simply want to see this resistance maintained as long as ZEC remains POW. It’s that simple. Can you not agree with this? That ZCash remain ASIC resistant WHILE it remains POW? Can you agree?
I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, “I have no problem with ZCash reverting to POS.” If that’s what the developers want to do, I wish them luck and I will move my GPU’s to mining a coin that truly understands the importance of ASIC resistance, such as Monero or any other Coin to come about in the future. I simply pointed out [And you agreed] that if ZCash were to go to POS, there would be consequences. Being less adoption and slowed adoption because most people using ZCash at present are speculators and miners.
This seems like a very serious problem to me. Does Zcash want to go through the same issues as Bitcoin and its’ hard forks?
I like the fact that ZCash is a currency (coin) and not a token. I believe ZCash with Equihash algorithm is far superior to SHA-256.
Since ZCash is mainly a currency (coin), it would be to the best interest of the developers [In my humble opinion] to truly become “The Peoples Coin” rather than “The Big ASIC Farms Coin.”
The only logical way I see for ZCash to become and remain “The Peoples Coin” is to remain ASIC resistant and the developers DEMONSTRATE to the world their devotion to maintaining ASIC resistance.
I think Vertcoin already adopted “The People’s Coin” and they have backed up their rhetoric by hard forking twice to prevent botnets and ASIC’s. However, I do support what you are saying and agree with it.
++++
Another important aspect we didn’t even touch yet is: goverments
Main ASIC farms are not in nations where cryptocurrencys are regulated, hek, china could freeze bitcoin in a jif…
Yes sir, totally agree! 100%
“Lyra2REv2, the hashing algorithm utilised by Vertcoin, is used to deter companies from creating ASICs so that mining can be done with anyone with a graphics card. ASIC resistance is achieved by the algorithm being difficult to develop an ASIC for as itself consists of 6 hash functions: BLAKE, Keccak, CubeHash, Lyra2, Skein and Blue Midnight Wish, meaning companies will have to develop an ASIC for each function as well as using them in the correct chain as expected.”
Wow I had no idea the Vertcoin algorithm was that complicated! It seems if you combined this algo with a high memory requirement it could make ASIC’s too complicated and require too much money to realistically be able to be invested in an ASIC rig. There would have to be 6 different ASIC types, enough memory to utilize them, and another device to put them in the correct order. I pulled this from the site below:
https://cryptoble.win/2018/04/07/vertcoin-complete-beginners-guide/
I would like to mention some ASIC benefits:
ASIC network is secured: 51% attack is one of scariest attack in cryptocurrency space. ASIC resistance networks are more vulnerable to 51% attack. you have to invest 10 times more if you want to attack ASIC network. in other hand ASIC resistance network can easily attack each other as long as all of them are based on GPUs.
Hash rate independent of price: ASIC Hardwares are expensive and useless for mining other coins, so hash rate does not drop if price drops like bitcoin and litecoin hash rate are much more table than Ethereum, but in GPU mining, if coin’s price drops miners will mine other ASIC resistance coin and this can cause 51% attack.
Energy efficient: ASIC are more Energy efficient to provide network security, what is the point of having HDMI and DVI port and many other useless feature in the GPU mining device? these facilities will never use, but miners paid for them as pointless investment.
ASIC is secured? What? Are you aware that a developer of an ASIC will use it for himself ? In an ASIC only world Bitmain would be a monopoly. 100% Attack : ) What a nonesese.
Ask Bitmain to create an own coin and take that route please.
Hash rate independent price? One argument for ASICs is that they are less expensive (less production costs)… Now you say they are expensive? They are only expensive at times where “real” users of any coin (and so the market) decided to raise the price… Than ASIC become automagically more expensive for “end-users” at high market prices…
If price drops ASICs will be shut down… Ask Genesis-minig when they have last time send me an payment.
A cpu can be useful and earn revenue at that time… Why? I can offer the power for Rendering-, cloud CAD work or just gamers.
Energy efficient… and you tell me that a 2x 10cent parts make the thing expensive?
The problem is that more miners = more Haspower raise difficulty… Even when there is basically no demand to add more Hashpower. They add more and more and more just as long the revenue is a bit over the costs for electricity… There is no demand by the network at all for their Hashpower.
It is like you install a water meter and the company selling you the water controls how many of it will delivered without asking you if you really need it.
So a GPU only network would be just as stable as required. More “unnecessary” Haspower will just raise difficulty and so lower the revenue for everyone else…
→ This + that as soon a new ASIC would pop up which renders the last one a inefficient door stopper should be enough to stop ASICs.
This is your personal opinion and not a fact.
10’000 GPU in 50 nations is surely more decentralized than 100 ASIC in 1 nation, this is a fact.
Without evidence you can’t state this.
If we’d change PoW algo it would be some great example to prove or disprove this.
If changing PoW makes hashrate drop 3/4 that would mean regular miners would mine x4 times as much coins. I’m pretty sure miners would defend prices with pride if zcash insisted on keeping the things how they are (ASIC resistance).
Changing PoW would take time and money for the zcash company but it would be something that community would greatly appreciate and give high value.
Eneregy efficiency != network security
A pointless investment is all in the hands of the zcash company.
Here is my personal experience:
I bought over 30 GPU’s to mine zcash and not any other given equihash related coin. I’ve invested over 2000 hours developing a cloud mining platform based on zcash. I’m implementing right now a payment gateway for zcash only and offering free vanity generated addresses (always only for zcsah) for my mining clients.
I’ve been actively developing since september to bring some neat, valid and strong applications thought exclusively for zcash, since it’s the ONLY project I admire and feel most ambitious about. All my services are built around the concept to boost zcash adoption and not personal earning.
Reading online on how much zooko is not with the community on this ASIC resistance aspect really brings me down. I got a meeting tommorow with an English copywriter for translations witch will cost me a couple of thousands and now I’m strongly confused on what to do. I’m not going to continue to invest in a project with an opportunist CEO (but you don’t have too - pfffft).
@johnwisdom
Same here… I am holding a new Cloud mining website back which acts also as ICO crouwdfunfing platform and since 2 days I am even thinking to start an fork of Zcash… So far I was planing to use Zcash for my exiting payment infrastructure (indieGO! Marketplace www.indiego-gaming.com) which exists for more than only Win, Mac, Linux … pfffft 
All I am waiting for is a simple statement. And I think the consensus of the “community” is to stay ASIC resistant. If you don’t try, you give up. If you give up, than the project is dead meat.
EDIT:
Imagine the positive effect of a simple statement… You get zCash back in the media. You give members a feeling of security and trust. Especially since zCash company /foundation got money by miners it is even more dangerous to ignore their wishes.
This has got to be one of the top three self serving posts in this thread. Since you can’t mine because of electricity costs= screw everyone else. Since you travel and can’t be bothered to set up a remote monitoring and control system= screw everyone else. Since you can’t spend the half of a day learning how to set up a mining rig or watch a couple of youtube videos while traveling= screw everyone else. You don’t want miners misleading the Zcash team about ASIC resistance when the Zcash team used that very same ASIC resistance as a selling point of the project is not only hypocritical, it’s laughable. It looks like the miners were the one misled. It looks like the only thing You care about is You and not this community. Most of us have seen What ASICs have done to other projects. We do not want that to happen here. If the Zcash team would not have use it as a selling point for the coin, the community couldn’t say much about it. They did however and now that @zooko is backpedaling on this issue, some of us are questioning his judgment and his integrity. If Zcash accepts ASICs, a lot of people are going to drop this project. Maybe then the price will drop down to the $150 level that you are waiting for to pick up some more. Your post is not about what is good for the community, it is about what is good for You and only You.
Great post!
Something is starting to look really fishy here based on the fact that we have some shills in this thread like @lordfeo who not only are unable to comprehend any sort of logical arguments, but their own posts are nothing but a horrible copy-paste from some shitblog by bitmain they found on the internet supporting ASIC.
I mean it takes a special kind of stupid to claim “ASIC network is more secured” or “its easier to make 51% using GPUs”.
For the life of me i still can’t figure out why he is even allowed to keep shilling here. When other shills on different threads start doing the same kind of tactics and shill for bitcoin gold or whatever, they are immediately banned. Which begs the question who this account really belongs to. On a related note, why is @zooko not even saying anything? i refuse to believe that he is just a naive/lazy developer who doesn’t wanna work on changing any parameters or algorithm to keep the promises made by his company (which is a legal contract btw and he could very well be sued for deciding to surrender to asics as others have mentioned here).
So, lets construct some theories here, some might be true and some might be just wild conspiracies:
This whole thing is “by design” and the confusion creation about this matter (by shill accounts as well as by zooko) is done on purpose to make some mining farm switch away from ZCash and get the difficulty down.
All of this is just a preparation for an already made deal with Bitmain, zooko can get more cut out of the mining if he promises bitmain to allow their asics.
This is just a normal confusion happening because it turns out, power & money do in fact ruins people and our ZCash developer team is not as strong as we thought since some developers simply don’t wanna keep working hard as they are already rich and couldn’t care less about the coin dying, or being centralized.
In which case, i call for removing zooko from the development team or fork off under the lead development of @daira who clearly possess more logical capabilities in foreseeing the future of the coin and working toward its success in the long term. Also their heart is clearly behind the coin and not the money.
I am switching back and forward between theory #1 and #3. idk…
Wow! I’m new to this forum but I made an account because I didn’t really expect my article to end up here seeing as my site has very few page views and I only shared it on the Vertcoin subreddit.
Lyra2REv2 is designed to not use high memory and this plays a part of the RE part (reduced efficiency). It basically means less power is needed and the card overall should be a little bit cooler.
Thanks 
ASIC networks can be more secure as difficulty is higher, the only problem is when you have a single entity monopolising the network. It is suspected that Bitmain (owners of Antpool and more) may have enough influence and hashrate to carry out a 51% attack on Bitcoin.
Also, hash rate isn’t completely independent on price - it only is if the people mining are at least breaking even (or not making too much loss). It may seem that way but it is mainly because most miners are in places where electricity is cheap.
It is disappointing that we have gotten to this point but can we not accept Zooko’s position as based on his (current) personal knowledge and experience? Zooko is a contrarian by nature and while you (or I) do not agree with him it’s important to be challenged on positions and to hear differing opinions.
Already on this thread it would be hard for someone to present a viewpoint on not changing the POW without getting derided or called a Bitmain shill. This isn’t simply good vs. evil and nothing in life is rarely ever that simple (there are consequences and real risks for changing the POW).
Zooko has already stated he is open to it if there is community support. I also think given we have had several prominent Zcash devs openly and eloquently state their support for ASIC resistance if we truly believe that it is Zooko alone who dictates all decisions then we should be equally concerned about centralisation of development.
I said it earlier but I think the Zcash Foundation can take an active role here as the long-term stewards of the protocol. As part of their mission: We support the transition of Zcash into a large and healthy community with diverse stakeholders, held accountable to its userbase in the broadest sense.
I read all replies, thanks for your attention, I answered some of them:
That’s not my personal opinion, thats from experts:
you can find one of them here look benefits of ASIC mining section 4
Thanks for share your personal experience, I respect that.
Sorry if my post was not clear for all. just I wanted mention some problem of GPU mining (PoW totally) it was not about me as just ONE person, there are many people in that situation.
100% correct.
Risk of 51% attack on ASIC resistance is more than ASIC with single ASIC manufactured. bitmain power is not close to attack bitcoin network. during the long period ASIC network security increase, but it will decrease in GPUs network.
Of course it is not completely independent, but more independent compare with GPUs networks.
found this from your source…
What are the drawbacks of ASIC mining?
1.Centralized — The design and manufacturing of ASIC is expensive. So instead of decentralizing. The companies that makes/manufacturing the ASIC are being centralized . Take for an example Bitmain, for the moment they control the Bitcoin ASIC market if they stop manufacturing those ASIC we wont be able to buy them.
2.Bound to a specific coin/cryptography algorithms — If the cryptography algorithm you have on your ASIC losses his value you can’t use it for something else.
3.Most people wont be able to afford an ASIC miner which is not the case for GPU mining. Almost CPU for the moment have at least 1 GPU which can be used for mining.
4.ASIC miners will continue on mining the same coin. Why would they move coin to a less profitable coin?
5.Unsecured, 51% attacks could happen by ASIC companies. Lets take Bitmain for an example. If they decide to take all the ASIC they created and keep it to them self instead of shipping it around the world. They are capable of creating a 51% attacks pretty easily
but you said at the previous post …
ASIC network is secured: 51% attack is one of scariest attack in cryptocurrency space. ASIC resistance networks are more vulnerable to 51% attack. you have to invest 10 times more if you want to attack ASIC network. in other hand ASIC resistance network can easily attack each other as long as all of them are based on GPUs.
i’m no expert and i’m trying to gather info to make decisions, why i feel you keep trying to mislead everyone here?
