The pools choose how/what they mine, not it’s users. If it was a P2Pool, then it would be different.
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And it’s capitalism to change the algorithm to fight ASIC’s. Get over it. Or are you a bot? What Bitmain is doing is more like predatory capitalism without regard for consequences. There is a way to make money more equitably.
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Abstract was my comparison (swords vs guns) and not the environment impact.
- Building an ASIC could have a greater impact on the environment than manufactoring a GPU
- GPU’s have great purpose in our society (gaming/AI development/scientific calculations ex weather, medical, time schedules)
- all GPU’s are build to last as long as possible and don’t lose purpose with a software update(in this case updating proof of work algoryhtm).
- GPU’s have long warranty
- GPU manufactors participate in recycling fees
- GPU’s are regulated
- GPU’s are accessible too everyone and distributed equally (buy limits)
Botnets are part of the game, ASIC are not.
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We are talking about HARDware power for 51% attack. your argue is not problem of ASICs. in other hand 51% attack is not beneficial for bitcoin so people will move their hash power from biggest pool as soon as they recognise it.
You maybe but big players won’t participate in 51% attack because it’s recognisable before it’s happening.
most of your argues are about miners (as consumers) benefits, not about network benefits which is the point of ASICs. I can connect bitcoin to drug and Child pornography and etc with many references and proofs, but we all know that’s not bitcoin problem. I think zcash purpose is very high and zcash will face many undesirable events such as censors and regulators but no reason to give up and change the way.
It matters when you want use ASIC chips as “Smart sensor ASIC for nuclear power monitoring”, otherwise backdoor and kill switch in mining machine is a kill switch for your ASIC manufacturer.
I think Andreas answered that perfectly.
and
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How come ?
Exactly, and using it for mining is preventing all other legit uses, considering GPU manufacturer decided not to increase production quotas.
Again, GPU manufacturers explicitly attacked miners by dropping warrant to 0 or only 3 months for miners! Software updates should not fight ASICs !!! This is communism !
Not for mining though!
sure, nothing stops having same standard to any manufacturer ! Don’t see how/why diff !
What stops ASIC manufacturer to be regulated !?
Not really! Are they distributed equally? Accessible the same worldwide !? No !
But that point I agree, ASICs are not the problem, not having enough is the problem 
Botnets were not part of the plan, neither for the Internet nor the Blockchain, they are simply the symptoms of a broken system! While, you cant be more wrong abut ASICs, they were predicted by SN in the original bitcoin paper.
No! it’s communism at the purest, angry mob mentality !
If capitalism, you will be working with Samsung so they provide ASICs as the do TVs !!!
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Who is building ASIC, what material are used and what is the process?
So mining is not a legit use? GPU’s are available through all year, price is something else.
Trying to buy 13x 1080 ti would take a couple of months, buying 1x 1080ti for gaming would take less than 24 hours.
Building mining GPU with less warranty, without video output and costing less is not attacking miners but finding a solution to their supply demand.
Regular cards, that can be used for mining still have same warranty (2-3 years). And paying 20% less for a 1060/rx570 mining card with no warranty is a great tradeoff.
Currently I’ve got no information on how ASIC get build and what taxes these companys pay and how enviromnmentaly friendly their impact is.
They will be regulated sooner or later… only a matter of time.
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Was written Nov 29, 2017 by a person who wrote TWO articles and not a single thing since then… AMAZING expert!
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Vitalik Opposes Fork to Disable Ethereum ASICs
The title is a little misleading, near the end of the article he states that if the community wants a fork we will do it, but they better have a good reason for it… sigh…
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another fallacy. google “fallacy of quantity vs quality”
If you think he is wrong, show your proofs.
I really appreciate @DanielG, he mentioned a problem so honest.
You justified your argument by posting a link citing an “expert”. You did this not me. I clicked on your link and read the author’s opinion.
I then pointed out that your “expert” has only two artiles and nothing published since it was written.
you quoted some anonymous expert to give weight to your opinion, and yet you only gave single source.
Anyone can google anything to find something that supports their opinion. Your opinion is valuable but I would prefer it if someone doesn’t say here is a link to an expert, when they are not.
If you don’t know someone does not mean he is anonymous, you can google his name. I think Eli Ben-Sasson knows him. ALSO anonymous person can make valuable article like Satoshi, if you think he is wrong, give some proof. anyway thanks for your attention.
I can google my name, does that make me not anonymous?
Let’s go back two steps, you said he was an expert… prove to me he is please.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adi-szeskin-65ba2b40/
Is it really hard to understand? you need an expert to say such simple thing? difficulty is higher so network is more secure. I won’t talk more about this due to simplicity (do your own research, if you find another result I’m glad to hear)
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Let’s not let such an important topic become bogged down by side arguments marginally-relevant (at best)debates.
I’m looking at this thread wondering where it’s going and seeing it turn out to be like every other internet thread full nonsensical and petty posts. If we expect the ZCash people to take the “community” seriously, devolving the thread into irrelevant nonsense is the best way to prevent that.
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@phakov
Because miners here make any pointless argue to deny some real facts. I’m NOT ASIC fan, but we need to talk and discuss to find better way.
This is my opinion from day 0. but 5 days ago I just mentioned some benefits of ASIC, everyone attacked me, just go up and have look what zcash community said! I hoped for a healthy negotiation, SADLY that was just a dream.
I decided to leave your community to give zcash community 100% same idea (be careful about 51%, sadly you are almost 100%).
OK so you whom have admitted you don’t have the technical capabilities to run a large farm… seem know what the “big players” care about and how they run their systems?
Healthy negotiation happens all the time on these forums, when all are willing to hear other ideas and opinions. However, you appear to be an expert on GPU and ASIC mining. Therefore, in this case, I don’t think it is possible, no one here seems qualified to debate you on the subject.
Apparently it is for you Mr Szeskin is a A PhD Student for Medical Images Processing at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He previously worked for intel and has knowledge of ASIC’s. He offers HIS point of view, again this does not make him an expert on ASIC’s.
@lordfeo you are right, this topic is of great concern to the community here. When you state something and then give a link to what you consider is from and then state he is an expert; then someone challenges you to back up that up, you leave?? So much for healthy negotiation.
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So ASIC’s are here to stay, there is no arguing with that. ASIC’s will become the norm in mining eventually. Zooko is right, there is no stopping it. I think we would do better if we accept this reality.
While ASIC’s are a threat to decentralization today, it does not have to be, nor will it likely be that way in the future. While I agree that we need to discuss how to deal with the ASIC threat today, we also need to discuss how we can evolve along with the changing technical landscape that includes ASIC’s.
Technology is moving very quickly. GPU’s will evolve away from mining (not specifically, but in a way that is not useful for mining) and instead focus in on AI and rendering, a very different problem. This is already happening, unless someone can tell me how to use the Tensor Cores in the Titan V for mining. ASIC’s or ASIC like tech will eventually take over for all block chain transaction processing.
My argument is that today ASIC’s are a threat, and today we need to address that threat, until it is no longer a threat. When is it no longer a threat? When anyone can go buy a shiny new ASIC miner just as easily as a GPU (well hopefully easier than buying a GPU in the last 9 months). However, the block chain community will need to be the source of ideas that will defuse the ASIC threat, its certainly not going to come from Bitmain.
For me, right now, ASIC’s and how they are handled today, will influence my mining support for a coin. However, planning how ASIC’s are integrated in the future, will have far greater influence on my long term commitments.
They are only inevitable if they give up just as anything else. There are ways to defeat them permanently if that is what people want, but it will require effort. There will be other coins that lead the way on this if Zcash doesn’t want to be bothered to do it.
However I do not understand Zooko’s “incentive alignment” argument. It seems he is saying that since people buy ASIC’s they can’t use them for anything else so they have to mine Zcash. Whereas people with GPU’s can quit mining with them and use them to do something else since they are general purpose. If that is his argument then it is easy to rebut. Just because they can use it for something else doesn’t mean they will. That is what the community is for: to get people involved with the coin and want to preserve the network. It is the Zcash teams responsibility to make the coin worth enough to keep enough people mining it to make it secure. If the coin is worth next to nothing then nobody will be mining it since they make no money doing it. And that is more incentive alignment than if people use GPU’s or ASIC’s.
So the choice here is to align themselves with ASIC’s and have a community that only cares about the bottom line and will resist change or a community of people that like the coin and want to be involved with it for more than just money and are willing to build a consensus and are more willing and able to compromise for the good of the coin. Because with atomic swaps around the corner it will be easy to get along without Zcash for most people unless they absolutely must have privacy which is, let’s face it, a small subset of people. So you can have a community that likes the team behind zcash and their fellow community members and want to use this coin over the others in addition to more privacy protections or you can have people interested in privacy at all costs and the bottom line at all costs and will fight change. Choosing the latter is a pessimistic view and not one that can build a positive community. Thankfully there are other coins and communities out there that we can all choose to go to if we feel Zcash takes the wrong turn.