I see a pattern —> “if the community really wants it then we will deliver”
This is just executive talk, like if we, THE COMMUNITY, had any voice in chapter.
This is democracy all over again!
Didn’t I read something (a direct quote) somewhere (these forums) where Zooko is waiting to see what ETH does before making a decision?
I haven’t seen that specifically, but I have read plenty of web articles with quotes attributable to Zooko indicating and overtly expressing philosophical alignment with Vitalik. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if your hunch was proven true.
Somewhere along the way, the ‘defense’ and the ‘prosecution’ traded places 
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Bitmain & CO have been getting their asses handed to them by the monero community and developers.
Mining hardware manufacturers have begun selling Cryptonight ASIC miners for next to nothing after privacy-centric cryptocurrency Monero carried out its threat to adopt a hard fork to maintain ASIC resistance.
https://www.ccn.com/manufacturer-holds-cryptonight-asic-firesale-after-monero-hard-forks/
also, here is how FU**** XMR was before the fork and how much hashpower btimain secretly control.
Now lets compare that behaviour with our own:
- an absent developer (@zooko ) breaking promisses that could cetralize the coin, drive all trust away from it and eventually kill the coin. Cherry on top? he doesnt even bother to post here.
- A thread clearly being destroyed by ASIC shill accounts from china who can’t even speak english properly but claim to be experts.
Although i must admit; On th positive side, not only do we have great posts from miners here like @ProwdClown, @johnwisdom @Edward_Teach @DanielG @ZC93 @Phoenixkonsole @cryptomined (sorry if i missed some others), we still have developers like @daira & @bitcartel speaking logic and providing smart statements.
So despite this thread being destroyed into oblivion by these shills, at least not all hope is lost 
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Out of the last 10 blocks, 8 were found by Flypool. The situation in @mario’s graphic is Zcash’s current situation. Preventing ASIC mining won’t keep Zcash decentralized, because it’s not decentralized in the first place.
I believe this conversation has become heated because miners here think they might lose money on their GPU system investments. I’m going to call BS on the idea that people here care for the “greater good” of Zcash miner decentralization.
At this point I’m starting to think that ASICs are inevitable and only depends on Zcash’s exchange rate. Once the price starts rising again, someone will put in the investment to build it; most likely in secret.
If you see my post above i mention the investment in our GPU rigs as reason to want it ASIC resistant. It’s probably a better system to keep it a little more decentralized as the production and sale of Gpus is more constrained then Bitmain ability to produce Asics. So yes there could and would be large gpu farms, but it would be harder for any one group to have almost total monopoly on hashing power.
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I disagree. This guy has an almost total monopoly on Zcash’s hashpower right now: Peter Pratscher – Vienna Lawnmowers Baseball Club
He owns Flypool/Bitfly. RIP decentralization.
So that just means that many miners are on flypool. That is not an ASIC issue, just where you point your miner. I send mine to nanopool
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I am working on a multicoin mining frontend and this thread inspired me to add a feature (pool selection). The tool should decide based on pools hashrate which pool it connects to. Just in the spirit of decentralization.
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Well after a while, when everyone is using asics, the efficiency will be the same as now of sorts. The hashrate will be a whole lot higher, but the power usage vs the block yield will be the same. Bitcoin is asic-only. Is it “efficient”? It’s all about the profits. Asics too evetually end up at near 0 profit
By accepting asics we will just have produced a whole lot of hardware that has no other purpose - no resale value to other markets. No gamers pick them up to play games on them. Wether you mine with gpus or asics is completely irrelevant from an efficiency standpoint.
The problem with asics is that it is always more profitable for the manufacturer to mine with them first behind closed doors, than selling them to the public upfront.
As an asic miner you are always competing against the next-gen asics that are there, but can’t be bought by you. So the really shiny profits go to the manufacturer, you get distinctly less.
Making a functional asic market, where asics are sold immediately to the public, and preferably geographically distributed to achieve decentralization, is probably an impossible endeavour.
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With less hashrate it would be easier splitting it equally in other pools. I do believe it’s more likely that a regular GPU miner is more sensitive and has more interest switching pools than any possible ASIC miner.
This is an issue that the community can collectivly work on, and working on this subject without ASIC miners running would be a much more logical and effective way on actually achieving this.
I call BS flagshipping a project as ASIC resistance and 1 year and a half later not supporting the same idea.
I call BS that the zcash company is not releasing any public statement but just keeping this discussion “in the shadows”
Putting emphasis on the fact that we, the miners, are mad about ASIC for the decentralization aspect is HOLY BS. This argument is diverting the topic. Who is even mad? We are having a clear productive discussion, any emotions you might have caught is your interpretation.
The main argument here is about respect and fairness.
Sure, money is involved and with a change miners would gain more. Why does this magically make miners horrible people? Isn’t it our right to ensure we get the slice of cake that belongs to us? Shame on you miners! Fighting for earning more!
I highly respect you @root and you’ve proven many times being a person with values…
… but please stay on topic. No one needs to talk about this now, not saying it’s not an issue or something that has to be fixed, but we already discussed this topic in many other threads.
To continue on with the actual discussion, here is a very interesting question posted from a user named elkimek on this github page:
So @zookozcash simple question. In case that Bitmain or any other ASIC manufacturer announce ASIC for equihash, would you support fork against it or not?
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So exactly my point, don’t fight it, embrace it. It is like fighting hash rate difficulty, it is math and common logic in the end!
Now … this is target harassment, calling names, but if decide to resort to that … fine! Only because we try to open your eyes to your VOID arguments.
About decentralisation : a recent paper : https://arxiv.org/pdf/1801.03998.pdf
read article : Cornell Researchers: Bitcoin Not as Decentralized as Assumed – Bitcoin News
" mining [is] very centralized, with the top four miners in Bitcoin and the top three miners in Ethereum controlling more than 50% of the hash rate.” so far for GPU myths spread so far in the thread … GPUs mean less decentralisation and less security! the point of @lordfeo
Also I pointed from economic and ecological point of view ASICs makes more sense than getting stacked with GPUs only.
On top of everything, in the end it is all about money/investment, already pointed out in the thread GPUs are at-least multi purpose! You can sell them ! Not the same for ASICs, so imagine how much ASICs owners would bitch 
But , of course, we are the shills …
Yes it will. 2 wrongs don’t make it right. Stop creating confusion please by talking about pools. It has been proven to you several times that pool centralisation is no where near as dangerous to a coin as ASIC is.
No big pool making this much money has ever attempted this fake BS 51% attack you keep using as a scare tactic. GPU mineble coins will ALWAYS be more decentralised than ASIC minable coins even if 1 single pool controls 90% of hashrate. you know why? because 1) GPUs can change coins & algorithms on the fly. 2) ASIC miners ASO use pool. #2 alone is enough of a fact for you to never ever bring up pool centralisation again unless you want to keep creating confusion and you are nothing but a shill from nanopool or some other shitty pool whos trying to spread hate and FUD about flypool.
call BS all you want, you are still dead wrong since the miners here (including me) have clearly proven with actual facts that ASIC is the death of decentrlization. The fact that they have money invested in GPUs has NOTHING to do with the discussion. ALL miners of ZCash are GPU miners, if ZCash wants ASIC, they should fork off and switch to SHA256 instead of destroying the current coin.
The same applies to you, why are you here in the first place? are you miner? what hardware to you have? what makes you think you have the right to voice your opinion on mining if you are not even a miner? go back to my BWL example, just because you have a BMW (a coin buyer), doesn’t give you the right to go to BWM head quarters and tell their engineers how to build their cars. Go start a company that manufactures engines (become a miner), then you can start telling BWM engineers how they should be building cars.
Since you love ASICs so much, please sell all your ZCash and buy Bitcoin Cash or litecoin or bitcoin or whatever SHA256 Algo coin out there. ZCash is about decentralisation and allowing any one with a GPU to start mining and support the network and defending it from future government attacks, company attacks (your beloved ASIC companies) , etc. Anyone arguing for ASICS is clearly against that and shouldn’t be dealing with ZCash in any way or form.
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There are three sides to every story. Your side, my side, and the truth.
As for myself I was introduced to Zcash and started mining it mainly due to the point that it was theoretically ASIC resistant and the algorithm would change if somehow they(who ever they are) figured it out. I based time and money on this, as I am sure a lot of others did as well.
As a member of the community I want ZCash Co, though they probably can not in the end, to at least try to honor the foundation of an ASIC resistant coin. To try means to have at least one time changed the algorithm to counter, prevent, or make worthless any ASIC machines in development or production.
Do I expect Zcash and Zooko to change it every time there is a rumor that one exists, no. I agree with him that always trying to keep it ASIC resistant in the long term the security and development Zcash would suffer.
Do I expect him to change it at least once to honor the community wishes and the foundation it was built on, yes.
There are centralized problems with ASIC when one company makes the bulk of them (and placing kill switch software inside the machines?). If there were 3 to 5 companies making them, well this might be a different discussion.
Does Zcash have a centralization issue now, yes. The difference between the two issues is the miners are causing it, not a single company.
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You are asking @root who as been a member of the Zcash forums for over 2 years reasons and motivations and if he is a miner? Bad form @mario
You’ve been here 6 days, what are your reasons, motivations, and what equipment do you have?
The attempt here is to look at and listen to all points without finger pointing and take your purple ball and go home we only want orange balls here thinking. Have the community with a majority voice make known how we think the future should go.
lol, “target harassment”? because i called out your 5 consecutive 1-sentence shill posts completely ignoring facts about how mining works, how the financial market works, etc? sure, whatever you say, i am sorry i hurt your feelings on the internet.
No it doesn’t (not that any one gives a flying crap about “ecological point of view”) . thats just your wild opinionated guess backed by ZERO facts. Creating expensive hardware for a single purpose in China, importing it to other countries with no guarantee, let it run for a couple of months and throwing it out in the garbage. Is according to you “expert opinion” more “ecologically friendly” than having a high end GPU that can be used for several years, adjusted to have hundrends of different ways (all of which benefiting society in countless ways), and resold to be used in gaming (a high demand - high tech industry) ?
hahahaha, nice trolling there bro
I hope its clear now what kind of void shill statements you are posting.
As i said to the last guy, you want ASIC? go buy SHA256 algo coins and leave us alone. You want to be an “eco friendly” social justice warrior? great for you. Then get out of the entire crypto market, sell your computers, stop using online banking, credit cards, etc, collect your own rain water, move to a home-build shed in the woods and go plant some potatoes and raise some chickens in your back yard. you’re be the hero of our society 
Fair enough, i didn’t see that (I don’t have a habit of stalking everyones profiles on forms). Never the less, assuming he is a miner (which i highly doubt any miner invested in hardware would support ASICs so much) and considering the amount of shilling happening here, you cant really blame me for starting to question motivation of someone who is ignoring all the huge mountain of evidence presented to him disproving his claims about how awesome ASICs for ZCash are.
Fair questions: as i explained in my earlier posts, i have a GPU Farm with over 90,000€ invested as total cost of equipment. I believe in the coin and its future & promises from the day i heard about it and been mining it every since despite it being not the currently most profitable coin. Age of accounts means nothing here, this is not facebook and there was no reason for me to create any account or post any comments before i heard of such nonesense as a lead ZCash developer trying to let ASICs destroy our coin and go back in their promises that got the miners interested in the first place.
My reasons? here there are:
- be the voice of reason against sudden change of promisses made by Zooko and against shill posts that keep changing the topic of this thread and keep ignoring facts. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that allowing ASICs is a horrible idea of ZCash and this has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt by me as well as by other posts from other miners here.
- Claim my right to voice my opinion on the development of the coin that i as minor have been supporting and keeping alive (not alone off course, but along with other miners).
- Defend my own investment as well as the investments of thousands of GPU miners who have supported this coin against us all losing millions of dollars.
So yeah, i guess i am the devil here, and the ASIC shills that you don’t want me pointing fingers at, are the angles
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Hey, I know this is a topic everyone feels passionately about, but please keep in mind our forum Code of Conduct and community guidelines when responding to others (which the moderators do enforce): FAQ - Zcash Community Forum
I really appreciate the fact that the Zcash community has a history of being civil and constructive, even around contentious topics. Let’s keep it up
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