Your not the devil, you are a voice in the community. Give your thoughts and opinions and facts, I can tell you are passionate about it. You can do so and be that way without attacking
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Fair enough, i will keep my suspicions to my self then and let everyone form their own theories of why this thread is being dragged into different directions.
Its also my fault to keep commenting back on repetitive posts that have already been disproven in this thread. All facts have been presented several times and whats really left is an actual official statement. Until then, to show that i truley am a supporter of Zcash, i will keep my farm mining it despite the fact that i could be making 2.5 times as much money by switching to XMR mining (due to their recent difficulty drop after the fork since ASIC controlled over the majority of their network hashrate secretly).
@johnwisdom The argument against ASICs is centered around decentralization of mining power. I believe that pooled mining centralization is directly related to the calculus of the topic. I also agree that Zcash chose Equihash because it was ASIC resistant and some Zcash team members have distanced themselves from that approach. It’s fair to question their motives and reasons. I’ve said my opinions on the topic so now I’ll observe and see what others have to say.
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Please no ASICs for Equihash!
Not only that, but the decentralization problem should be addressed as well. Earlier suggested node&miner SW and even actual HW standalone solutions could be created…
I’d actually like to chat with anyone interested from the foundation on this subject as I have the r&d part and silicon supply figured.
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i’m with you brodhaa
I put together some code which can upgrade equihash parameters. More details here: Plan how to change the proof-of-work · Issue #1211 · zcash/zcash · GitHub
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Great job, thank you very much for your dedication and work!
Quick & possibly dumb question: Is there an official documentation on how the code is built/functioning?
in other words, i just want to write a small test miner in java (without speaking to CUDA devices yet) that gets work from the ZCash network, solves the equation and sends a successful solution. Could you point me in the right direction or where to educate my self to achieve this?
It’s very interesting when you read other forums and find posts that Zooko has written. Here are some clips and how I interpreted them (IMO in my opinion). This was from three days ago:
Zooko - I also think that ASIC mining is better than CPU/GPU mining in one important way, which is that it aligns incentives between the users of the network and the miners. That’s important, and it might turn out to be the most important factor!
ME (IMO) - I read, I want you to invest in a machine that can only mine Zcash and that you can’t go anywhere else.
Zooko - I’m also skeptical that it is actually possible to prevent ASIC mining. We tried, two years ago, despite several experts telling me that they thought it was impossible. Now it looks like (re the Cryptonight and EthHash miners) the experts were right.
So why did I decide to do it even though multiple experts told me they thought it was impossible? Because I had realized that there is a irreconcilable trade-off between broader-user-base and better-incentive-alignment. CPU/GPU mining gives (or at least potentially can give — see below) broader-user-base, but ASIC mining gives better-incentive-alignment. I figured that we would aim for broader-user-base — because at that point the biggest threat to the success of Zcash was just not gaining a critical mass of early users! — and even if it didn’t work, at least we’d still get better-incentive-alignment. I also figured that it would work for at least a few years, and then if it then eventually failed, it would have served its purpose by bootstrapping the Zcash network with a broader base of users.
Me (IMO) - I’m being told that ASIC resistance is probably not possible. However lets say this coin is ASIC resistant, lets get our user base and lets get established on CPU / GPU. Once we are established and if ASIC comes then oh well we have established ourselves
Zooko - But on top of all the other skepticisms listed above, I’m most skeptical of all of the idea that CPU/GPU mining promotes decentralization!
ME (IMO) - I didn’t care (then) if CPU / GPU promoted decentralization or not as long as the user base was established
Question to Zooko and his reply -
“It seems pretty clear that mining coalitions in other coins act purely in their own interests.”
Yes, and we should design for the assumption that they will do so, regardless of what technology is used for mining. This is why the better-incentive-alignment argument is important.
Me (IMO) - we = I (Zooko) should make the decision for the community (miners) because they(current GPU miners) are only going to make the decision that best self serves them and why I (Zooko) think ASIC mining is the best future for Zcash
Link to github posting so that you can read in full detail
Someone asked this question, and I think it deserves an answer “Where did this Zooko go?”
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Math fact? Logical error is more like it? What happens as more and more asics enter the coin mining? The difficulty goes up, which means profits go down. At some point the most inefficient miner makes a daily loss instead of profit. GPU miners leave the stage. The process continues - as long as there are profits more and more asics join the mining party, and eventually you are back at square one. The difficulty is much higher, but the profits per watt are likely the same, close to 0.
How does the ”math fact” tie into this scenario?
Also consider that the asic manufacturers never sell directly to the public, they mine covertly first, reducing everyone elses profits. As they get the next gen miner ready, they sell the previous gen to the public for additional profit, knowing they will soon be obsolete by their own making.
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His ASICs bring “better-incentive-alignment” argument is completely void IMO, Lets examine this:
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ASIC machines don’t mine just one coin. There is no such a thing and never will be created. That alone proves that X amount of rich people only buying ASICs to mine your coin, will stick to that coin if the profitability goes down (which has been clearly proved here and everywhere that it will much faster and worse than GPU mining).
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Investing X money into hardware is the same “incentive” regardless of what kind of hardware that is since majority of miners will mine to hold a coin they believe in. and as i mentioned in point #1, both kinds of machines can switch to a different coin in a second.
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The biggest “incentives” for miners to support a coin, is a strong development team that doesn’t back up on their words and would never dream of hurting the miners who support the network.
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More “incentives”? how about trying to bring technological advancements to the coin (Full Nodes, better support for mining programs, inclusion of mining programs into the node itself and thus even getting rid of the pools (which alone could moon the entire coin) , lower the 20% cut, better marketing, talking with more big and small exchanges and getting the coin listed, using that 20% cut to create relationships with businesses and get them to accept ZCash as a form of payments, etc etc.
Even Edward snowden talked about ZCash, yet we got no boost from that. From a business stand point of view, this suggest that we have a major flaw that is deterring people away from the coin. Lets take our pick from all the points i mentioned above that we should be improving instead of saying “oh well, let some Chinese company control all our hashpower; lets trust them that they don’t have backdoors to the machines they make; Lets screw over the investments of all our miners who supported us from the get go”.
EDIT: Forgot to address his “i am told ASIC resistance is not possible”:
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Didn’t XMR just do it? and kicked ass like bosses while doing it? didn’t they just drove Bitmain & Co to panic and sell their hardware “5 for 1 deal” ? you think people will still buy those ASICs? you think Bitmain is going to attempt their attack/scam again with XMR? At best they might try to do some secret mining, but the XMR developers are not stupid. They are on the look out now, they are armed and dangerous and they have clearly shown to be a force to recon with.
BTW, i don’t mean you you, i mean it as an indirect response to him. -
I have already seen several brilliant ideas (in addition to periodic parameter changing) posted on github & reddit about a “fool proof” way to be 100% ASIC resistant. And although i don’t know the ZCash code myself, i do know a bit of programming and they sound very logical and implantable. One of the great developers of ZCash in previous comments already worked on a test network parameter change, this alone shows that we are capable of more than this “lets surrender to ASIC” nonsense.
Side note: Anyone wants to take a single 0.2 ZEC bet with me that the Hashrate of the network will drop at least by 20% if we applied a parameter change that will effectively stop any current “hypothetical” ASIC machines from working?
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Well regardless of whether or not Zokoo said what he did on purpose doesn’t matter (have ya considered it?), the fire has obviously been lit and although there is a lot of fud on this thread there are some things constructive. So remember after puke comes rally.
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I have fully stopped mining zCash as it is just not profitable to do so. I did have some big buy orders in for the coin, but have removed them for now. I will keep watching for signs the dev team changes things like monero did to resist Bitmain and his Asics. So far I am not impressed with what I have heard from the top.
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I Think it’s time for me to consider trading my ZEC for XMR and point my hash power to monero. Not for coin preference but because of developer integrity. I like this community but if I can’t trust the developers to stick to their word, then I can’t trust the integrity of the coin. @zooko has thrown a shadow on the whole Zcash project by his willingness to accept ASIC mining and throw the community under the bus driven by Bitmain. Even if we get through this and Zcash remains ASIC resistant, @zooko has shown his willingness to backstab the very community that helped raise him up. We will always have to wonder when the chance to betray us comes along if he will sell out the people who held trust in him. I only have 5500-6000 hash power on my rig but I would rather invest it in a project that keeps to its principles and its selling points. I would thank @daira and @bitcartel for trying to be voices of reason in this but with @zooko at the helm of the Titanic, I think we know how this story will end. I hope that I am wrong and you guys make a killing with Zcash. As for me, once someone has shown a willingness to betray a person or group, it is easier to cut them loose or bury them than it is to invest the time and resources into making sure that same person doesn’t do it again. @zooko has shown that willingness and it is time for the community to decide if they want to back a man who has already broken trust with them. Good luck with your ventures, I will keep popping in to see how this works out but there should be no compromise on one of the founding principles of this project. Take care and good luck to you all.
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CitricAcid,
How long someone has been a member of ZCash forum should have no consequence as to the validity or logic of their comments. Do not assume a new-comer’s comments are without merit simply because they are new.
I’ve been here about the same amount of time AS A MEMBER but I have come here more often than you may believe on my phone without making comments or becoming a member. I saw no need to become a member and make comments until I saw my investment potentially at threat because a developer seemingly wants to back out on a promise.
All the developers of ZEC should “KNOW” we are not stupid and can SEE CLEARLY the advantages of being ASIC RESISTANT. Commonsense would tell someone they KNEW THIS when the made the PROMISE for ASIC resistance. We, as miners, are simply pointing out they should keep this promise.
I’ve been mining ZEC since the genesis block non-stop. I intend to continue mining it. I invested over $100,000 in hardware to mine ZEC since the genesis block. I mine it not just for profits but also to support the technology behind ZCash.
I feel it has a LOT to offer freedom loving people. I only hope the developers maintain focus to continue this fight for freedom against corrupt governments. Government, is the king of centralization. I can only hope ZCash developers grasp a hold of this and continue to fight the good fight to deliver us from the corruption of centralized government by not allowing ANY FORM of centralization to infiltrate ZCash. This includes centralized mining manufacturers of ASIC’s.
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Edward_Teach,
Well said with your comment 6 hours ago!
I’ve mentioned the same thing several days ago. One thing I mentioned is the FACT that a LARGE majority of holders of ZCash are GPU Miners. This is the case still with most coins EXCEPT Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Ethereum, Litecoin and Monero. Most ALL other coins that are mined with GPU’s are held by GPU miners.
IF the developers of ZCash want to break their promise and pave the way for ASIC’s to come in by one to three manufacturers of ASIC’s, let them do it. ZCash will NEVER gain the traction they want it take because it will simply be owned by ASIC mining manufacturers and speculators. That’s it… No adoption by retailers. No adoption by anyone of significance. Simply a coin for ASIC miners and speculators.
Maybe that’s what Zooko sees for ZCash in the first place and he has given up; now that he has his millions. I’m happy for him. Although, I’m also sad if this is the case. As life has more meaning than simply money. Some things [Besides money] give life more meaning. Such as leaving a legacy behind that transcends money and defends humanity and freedom against tyrannical governments and corporations (including Bitmain).
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I can tell you didn’t read why I posted that and decided to jump into something you are not 100% read in on.
When someone says this to a known forum user and miner that has been here 2 years, heck yes I am going to speak up - “The same applies to you, why are you here in the first place? are you miner? what hardware to you have? what makes you think you have the right to voice your opinion on mining if you are not even a miner?”
I did not stifle his opinion or thoughts, I answered their question as to who the user is and asked who they are.
You’ve been an active posting member for 6 days. You say you’ve been here since the beginning, yet other than server your self needs and until recently you’ve been silent contributing nothing to this forum community. With your alleged 100k investment (36 rigs) in peral due to ASIC’s, now does it server you to have an active voice. (golf clap) welcome to the forums!
the balance of cost effectiveness vs decentralization and accessibility benefits can be calculated. which may lead to something like enabling several simultaneous POW paths for ZEC(various Equihash versions tuned/hw targeted. at scheduled hardforks ) : CPU, GPUs, ASICs hashes are all acceptable with configurable proportions as to serve the platform better.
Citric Acid,
I read the first 4 lines of your post and stopped reading.
I’ll do whatever the HELL I want to, trick!
Citric Acid,
Also, if you were to see how much I’ve “contributed” on bitcoin talk since 2014, simply go back to posts from the past to see my CONTRIBUTION. Over 2,240 posts on there.
Over 20,000 posts on Tradingview helping miners and traders. I actually have a good reputation on bitcointalk.org and tradingview.com. Here’s my public profile on Trading view if you want to have a look. Anyone is welcome. I actually try to help people trade and explain things to them AT NO CHARGE. So, not the selfish ass hole you make me out to be WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME.
My Profile on TRADINGVIEW: https://www.tradingview.com/u/ProwdClown/
One Post I made on HOW TO USE GODMODE that got me recognition and a following. I’ve even helped several people from around the world thank me for helping them financially. Even helped a guy in Germany avoid bankruptcy. But you go ahead and judge according to the appearance instead of righteous judgement. Cause with what judgement you meet others, you will be judged the same.
Here’s that post on HOW to used Godmode with almost 11,000 views: Basic Understanding of HOW to use Godmode. Pasted in comments... for BITSTAMP:BTCUSD by WyckoffMode — TradingView
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There’s this thing called, “Trading” that can do wonders if you know what you’re doing. However, it sounds like you would rather see one suffer than do well for themselves by the way you said what you said. Are you sure you’re not out to serve your own interests of seeing someone suffer at the hand of others?
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