Let’s talk about ASIC mining

he made a mistake(s). he always gave his reasoning and now it is not playing out how he thought it would he is readjusting his position.

he has taken a lot of flack for his posts, maybe cut him a break?

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Let me quote myself where I was right and ASIC supporters were wrong:

The problem with BTG is nearly all coins that can be mined, have been mined. people are fighting for scraps to make other people much richer. I don’t get the BTG love.

well, shit, that changes things. the asic manufactures now have a cudgel to wave at the dev team. at least with flypool their was no direct link between hardware manufacture, distributor and pool operator. (not to mention no KYC)

Now if a fork is announced whats to stop the 64% ruining the blockchain? @zooko you said a 51% attack was one of your greatest fears. well now you have some entities that can threaten you with that if you try to fork of asics.

I feel (yes this is just a feeling) that too many nvidia gpus have been sold off due to asics that a surprise fork would end the same way that the BTG fork did. do you see this as an issue? that if you fork there is no efficient distributed far enough to stop a rented 51% attack?

@zooko I know you have given these forums away so you no longer have responsibilities here, but please answer this question.

thanks,

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It’s no one’s fault. I don’t really blame people that bought the Z9 Mini. Money is money. I did say no one’s fault well I’m wrong here. It’s ONE person fault and we all know who that is. That person will pay for it in the end. Zec will not survive Bitmains take over.

Bitmain? What about Innosolicon? Do they not also sell Equihash ASICs? I get the impression that some of the anti-Bitmain comments are stuck in an infinite loop.

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but in this case:

while(false){}

It doesn’t really matter which one, or both, they are both in China last I knew. Which means one country (who has a very significant history of doing oppressive things) has some serious influence over “currency 2.0”. Yes I know GMO is coming for Bitcoin/Bitmain at some point…curious to see the impact of that down the road…if there really is any (time will tell). 64% of the hash rate for the coin (if I read that right earlier), made by two companies, in a country known to be oppressive. What could possible go wrong with that?? /sarcasm

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I personally don’t like the conspiracy vibe your throwing in here.
It’s good to be aware on what is going on and discussing about solutions or alternatives.
Another thing is making assumpitions as we are in danger and should be afraid of a given country.

China produces the majority of eletronics devices, which is not good for sure, but it’s a consequence of capitalism (greed) and not a “taking over the world” scheme.

I don’t think I would act differently if I had the chance.

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That wasn’t a conspiracy vibe. It’s called “sarcasm”. IE when was it ever a good idea to place all ones eggs in a single basket? You follow?

Having the majority of hash power, plus both of the biggest makers of ASICS for any coin in a single country, especially one that doesn’t shy away from coercing their own citizens/companies into doing their bidding is never a recipe for “good things” to happen.

It is the same argument made once against Flypool…and how dangerous they were becoming because they “could” perform a 51% attack if they wanted too. Except in this case, it’s a bigger threat as not only is the hash centralized, so is the production of the machines that provide it now. Please explain to me how that isn’t even a slightly alarming state of affairs??

I distinctly remember arguments being made that ASIC would break up the centralization…even though many of us explicitly said no, it will just change where it is centralized, and make it even worse in the long run. Can you see it now?

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All GPUs have some part of them (PCB or all components) made in China.

That is true, but in the same breath, AMD/NVIDIA aren’t running mining pools, and their own farms. They have no real vested interest one way or another. If China wanted to mess with GPU manufacturing they would face world wide push back for their trouble, probably far more than anything they could gain out of it. Can the same really be said for Crypto right now?

Also note, TSMC is in Tiawan, not China, and only one of their FABs is actually in China, so they don’t exactly have a lock components.

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China was forcing mining farms to move their operations, including cloud mining services, out of China. I don’t see how that meshes with the likelihood that they would try to gain control of and disrupt mining. I’m pretty sure people would point there hashrate elsewhere if a specific pool became a problem.

Also, the “get everyone angry at Bitmain” has no real point. Switching to ProgPOW prematurely would be irresponsible until we know what the outcome of that would be. Switching to POS would be ideal, but again, we don’t know the outcome, and it’s best to follow Ethereum’s lead when they make that move.

PoW mining has never been a perfect situation where larger operations didn’t have an advantage over home-based hobbyist miners. In this regard, there has always been something to complain about. All things being equal (to complain about!) I think ASICs themselves aren’t all that bad for securing the network. It doesn’t really matter where they are manufacturers as long as distributors can be located outside of China.

Call it what you want, but China has shown everyone time and again that they are a big abuser of censorship. You cant deny this fact. Its not hard to imagine China passing a law on privacy coins and ASICs that mine them.

How is this so far fetched? They have been talking about privacy coins and censorship for months now…but keep your head in the sand and just call everyone else crazy or paranoid. It has nothing to do with taking over the world, its all about control, and with privacy coins they have zero control over them, and you think they are just going to watch billions be spent with no oversight?

Dont listen to the people who warned about the problems with ASICs months ago tho, we were just throwing conspiracy vibes around…

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I get what your saying @root, but you also have to realize. What happens when the government simple sends liasons to said company and tells them, you will do this, and BTW you won’t be moving out of the country, nor will you be traveling for the foreseeable future. To ensure this we have invited certain members of your family to be our “guests” for an undefined period of time. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, it has happened, they are called “political prisoners”.

Most zcash coins are now made in China …and that 3 China pools that did not even mine Zcash a year ago now have 2 times more hashrate then all 40 other Zcash pools combine.
I know you will just ignore…you would ignore even if 100% are made in China as long as you have some secret deal with them .

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tell me what is the difference with cash?

warning about what? 99% of bitcoin hashrate is mined by chinese asic since 2016. I don’t get your point.


Bitmain extended their KYC process till the 31st of october.

One big difference, With Privacy coins, I can send money internationally almost instanly, with no limits on the amounts I can send, Completely anonymous, and no one can stop it. You cant just mail $1,000,000 dollars in the mail and expect no problems.

And for you to ask this question makes me wonder if you even thought about the question before spewing this garbage. Clearly Privacy coins are the same thing as cash, so why are you even hear on these forums, just use cash…

EDIT: And if you think they are not watching cash, try depositing a large amount of money into a bank account, im sure its 100% private and no goverment will be able to take your money.

I think you answered your own question. If you dont see any problems with this, then nothing I say will help you understand. These ASIC people are blinded by greed…

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The overall Zcash network pool hashpower distribution appears to be better than it was several months ago Flypool over 70% of total hashrate

Comparing todays chart:

But to your point, there is no guarantee that this balance will be maintained indefinitely as more systems hit the streets.

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I agree it won’t be. It will most likely get far worse. I have watched what took Flypool a considerable amount of time to build up too overtaken by a couple ASIC pools in the matter of a couple months. I thought it would take considerably longer for things to get this far, but it’s happening at break neck speed. I fail to see how “this” is “better”.

The lions share of the hash rate is now centered in China. I had never heard of poolin…who are they btw? Who owns them? I can see they are Chinese, but “who” exactly are they?? Are they a puppet company of Innosilicon or Bitmain? If that was the case then it’s as bad as it was, and getting worse.

I disagree with this, with privacy coins you can’t send money, you send just privacy coins.
Or better said using your example. If you send Zcash worth 1M $ and cash it out/exchange it, than you have again the same problem as initially with cash, hence you send only ZEC or whatever privacy coin, but in my opinion, at this stage, it’s not money you are sending.