Let’s talk about ASIC mining

Mining
5156

Actually i never sold a single coin to FIAT to cover whatever, you?
Your statement that i care for ROI doesn’t make sense again. I’am for POS but i would need PoW asic and gpu profitibility to ROI :thinking: One excludes the other, obviously.

There is NO FREE energy. You can steel it, you can make someone else pay for it, but it’s not free. Green energy is an option though and i personally thought about it, but as soon as i realized that PoW is coming to it’s end it doesn’t make sense at all, hence i prefer using PoS for 2019 and paying these additionally 10W (??) for staking instead indeed paying that much for electricity.

Energy is used (wasted) in PoW, and just because i have a whole bigger mining farm doesn’t mean it’s not efficient, while i agree it’s still wasted money, but that’s how PoW works…

5157

there are places on the planet with power excess, power there is literally free.
there are countries with official 0.02$ per kwh or less.

stop saying that pow is waste of energy. it is true for you, not everybody.

you are the one that said that the amount of power needed for bitcoin mining is just ridiculous. hope you have seen study which showed that bitcoin mining is 10 time less consuming compared to actual mining of the gold (metal for price speculation, almost without use).

factually almost all your statements from may have fallen.
same result will be with Pos, Poa, whatever else.

you do not look back.
you do not admit mistakes.
you just find something new, what you can explain to others.

5158

Dude, GPU mining isnt coming back for Zcash. 0.02$ per kwh price you speak of is usually reserved for big farms in the middle of nowhere, not for ordinary people. I own 4 GPU rigs, but I’ve done all i could and failed to convince coin devs (not just Zcash but Horizen as well) to fork away to be ASIC resistant. I dont act like I care going green, I couldnt give a shit as long as its making me money.
Now from the perspective of a HODLer of those coins, would you prefer the PoW inflation where miners get all the coins and continuously sell them for electricity/ new hardware each month/few months thus pushing it down or where staking your coins compensates for the inflation, with weak/or no sell pressure at all.

Also its clear that PoW have limitations with transaction speed compared to other Proofs of solving it.

1 Like
5159

i do not care about gpu pow because it is best payoff for me.
i care about it because it is best for zcash.
must have asic resistance!
moving to pos, softly for community, if devs see a point.

not giving up is just a part of me :slight_smile:

5160

[quote=“nec, post:5157, topic:27353, full:true”]
there are places on the planet with power excess, power there is literally free.
there are countries with official 0.02$ per kwh or less.[/quote]

What? There is only Venezuela below that level. Just checked the electricity world wide price list and you won’t find another country with 0.02$ per kw/h for sure. And you call me a dreamer, lol? Next cheapest countries are some 0.05$ upwards and even these are only a very view…

But i like that argument. If electricity is that cheap you actually even can continue to mine ZEC with your gpu’s, they are still profitable than :laughing:

[quote=“nec, post:5157, topic:27353, full:true”]
you are the one that said that the amount of power needed for bitcoin mining is just ridiculous. hope you have seen study which showed that bitcoin mining is 10 time less consuming compared to actual mining of the gold (metal for price speculation, almost without use).[/quote]

Gold without use? Dude, inform yourself a bit where gold is used: gold is used in almost every sophisticated electronic device, cell phones, whatever. Saying gold has no use is just nonsens…

[quote=“nec, post:5157, topic:27353, full:true”]
factually almost all your statements from may have fallen.
same result will be with Pos, Poa, whatever else. [/quote]

I guess that’s the reason you can’t invalidate the arguments in favour of PoS. They are wrong just because i wrote them and you believe other. Strong argument to use your wording :slight_smile:

True, i don’t look back.
False, i admit mistakes, my biggest mistake in this topic was indeed to believe that Bitmain will honestly announce batch units. An ever bigger mistake was not to stop earlier buying hardware.
True, when i find something new that looks better, is superior and makes more sense than i’am all for it. And yes, i explain it, because many facts about PoS, PoA, similars are unknown, like superior transactions per second, different designs, and a lot other things. Even in the last topic there has been still a believer that ETH needs 1.500 to stake while it will be 10 ETH. Hence there is need for explainations, obviously.

5161

check out russian part of internet, miners consider everything higher than 0.02 usd pretty expensive lol… belarus with some new nuclear stations with huge power excesses, some states, some places in canada, im not speaking about georgia, iceland, abhazija…

you seriously need more factual information for your level of writing.

5162

So Chucky732 you wanna buy my GPUs? 12 RX580 $2k for 6! They have been on the market since June… Yea real hard to sell TY…
Not everyone knows how to program in some way nor has the time to sit and play with there little computer all day or night just to get the GPU to work properly. Unless you know a little about programming then For the average everyday person it’s a pain.
Great you can go to bestbuy and pick up a GPU! I love America!!! Does the average everyday person who does not know about programming buy a GPU that is difficult to set up and very costly to keep running with very little ROI even if they hold for the long run. Or do they buy a faster and more efficient miner that’s easy to set up with a quicker ROI? But the simple fact is your single GPU cost “x” amount. Where you have another miner it’s more powerful, more energy efficient though it’s applications are for only 1 thing but it produces way more ROI then a single GPU that costs about the same. You need more then 6 GPUs to keep up with the 1 ASIC.
What do you think the average person should do?
No matter what you do people will always try to find a more efficient, quicker and easier way to do things then the way you are doing it right now.
We live in a digital age and GPUs are basically from the analog age. When CPUs first came out. And I don’t know if you GPU guys know this but technology changes every 2yrs. You either keep up with technology or you waddle away with your slow old stuff, ig. the swift payment systems the banks use today. Hence a reason for blockchain technology!!!”
It’s not rocket science but I’m a capitalist emerged in a competing global economy and we all are competing for basically the same thing.
If cryptocurrencies want to be taken seriously in the global economy right now and play with the big boys “aka The Dow and nasdaq” then we need to put on the big boy pants and stop forking coins and stop complaining that the more expensive machine that has more applications then other different miners is costing me more money upfront and in the long run to keep it running. And in turn causing my ROI to disappear.
Isn’t it mainly all about getting the most Benjamin’s/crypto’s you can get so you can retire off of besides decentralizing the internet?

5163

If your PC breaks down do you fix it then? No, you pay some cash to have someone fix it. Its similar to with Mining rigs, often you find people willing to help for free, but if you dont, you can always hire someone to set it up for you.

5164

While i agree that setting up an Asic is easier than a gpu rig, there is no doubt about it there are other drawbacks an asic has versus gpu mining for example. Most asics are louder, it’s just like that.

Means while the gpu is harder to setup it’s easier to maintain at home versus the asic, easier to setup but harder to have at home.

About the digital age. Gpu’s are not from the analog age for sure, lol. Actually i admit that they are more advanced than an asic is (or at least most asics as their might be some expections). With an asic you just have a piece that just does a given work. And i personally wouldn’t go that far calling this “digital age”. Digital Age would be having your watch, cell phone, fridge, TV mining like it’s possible with PoA. That’s digital age in my opinion but not some asic.

About your swift and banks technology argument. This has nothing to do with gpu or asic. Actually it’s an argument versus both of them, no matter if asic or gpu. Ever researched how many asic/gpu transactions you can handle with the current blockchain PoW design? You won’t find a bank that will work with an asic driven algo and Proof of work as it’s just too slow, too limited too expensive too whatever. Blockchain technology isn’t related to asic or gpu as you want to make it suggest. Both use it,but both not efficient enough, easy as that.

About forking. IF you don’t fork from time to time you mostly limit developement. If you fork to much it’s not good either as it’s a security risk each time. However, your argument against forking is based only of having your asics staying profitable as long as possible, this is not an argument for evolution and making a coin better or advance faster.

I see where you are coming from, but you have little to no valid arguments other than you want your investment to ROI.

1 Like
5165

https://t.co/dnFP873fPv?amp=1

2 Likes
5166

Ok, here i go with more factual information:

Belarus:
At present industrial consumers pay 10.79 cents per 1 kWh. Belarusian households pay 5.49 cents per 1 kWh without VAT. It costs 6.81 cents to generate 1 kWh of electricity in Belarus. Before the Belarusian nuclear power plant goes online, industrial consumers will pay 7.25 cents per 1 kWh.
==> As said there aren’t many that are around 5 cents, what’s left for your advertised suggested 0.02$.

Ukraine: 0.04$

Russia: there are only a view regions in Russia that have real low electricity costs: Irkutsk, Crimea, Sevastopol, Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk, Dagestan, Novosibirsk, Chechnya, Tyumen, Khanty-Mansiysk, Yamalo-Nenets, Murmansk, Orenburg, Chelyabinsk, Trans-Baikal Territory. These are the russian regions with below 0.05$ access to electricity. The average electricity price russians pay is 0.07-0.08$ as most of these regions are with less population. And regions are not countries, just as a side note.

Canada: I have some problems finding prices for Canada, seems every region and every city and town have their own prices. Seems in Alberta it’s generally cheap while in Ontario it’s generally expensive even for american standards. Maybe a canadian can give some info about electricity pricces here.

Georgia: Actually very expensive for households, the country is even importing electricity.

Iceland: Average household electricity price is 0.16$, even very expensive. Seems you got missleaded here by some big mining farms that use thermal heat/steam for their mining farms. I admit i as well thought it was way cheaper there until reading about it right now.

Conclusion: Are there regions with really cheap electricity? Yes, there are some regions. Does the normal average joe miner have access to these? I doubt, only these that are by luck in any of these regions have, this is without doubt the vast minority of small miners. I think we can say that the average miner pays at least 0.1$ worldwide for electricity. Let alone the 3 guys in irkuktsk and the 20 in venezuela mining the petro (kidding here!).

Not sure about you. But i won’t move to a nuclear power plant just to have cheap PoW mining.

.

5167

google warrior :))) just ask someone real from those countries. especially georgia and abhazia.

oh yeah, from moving near power plants which have excess you will be paying 6000 usd for same nuclear energy imported from russia in hungary.

5168

It’s not an issue about exactly which regions/countries have in some parts low electricity costs. It’s a question of how many have access to these and i bet it’s less than 5%, mostly even less than 1%. That’s the point.

Just because some view parts in the world have access to low electricity costs doesn’t mean it applies to all. Actually this is an centralization argument, just in case you didn’t notice it yet.

I don’t live in hungary, so i have no idea what the sidenote should be for. My country has it’s own nuclear plant and after i get taxes returned i pay 0.10$ per kw/h, which for european standard is pretty ok. Just because i have a lot of asics and still some gpu rigs doesn’t mean it’s unefficient. I have no clue where you are living but maybe with the same hardware you would even pay 10.000+ monthly, so again, just to fix a electricity bill without knowing the hardware does make exactly 0 sense, lol. It’s only good for a good laugh.

5169

0.15, 0.12 now 0.10 you bounce like a ball.

5171

It’s obviously a typo, it should be USD of course in case i wrote indeed Euro.

After you want it absolutly correctly:
I pay: 0.136 USD per kw/h ~0.14 (last month)
the VAT i get returned is 20%
Price i paid after returned VAT: ~0.1075 hence i wrote 0.10

I even wrote that it’s about 0.1 after returned Tax (VAT), so taking it out of context is lower than low…

the change in USD by 0.01 down/up comes from the exchange price as the USD isn’t hardfixed to my local currency which isn’t the Euro by the way!

No rocket science at all. I don’t have any need to lie for whatever.

After you can’t come up with real arguments you really have to go as low as such primitive personal attacks?

That’s the really sad part. When no arguments help and are available you have to go personal. Really sad that a discussion can’t be done without low personal attacks. But than again, just proofes that my arguments on POS are rock solid after you can’t come up neither with digits and numbers, nor with facts, but personal attempts to discredit someone.

P.S.: Using my avatar in yours as well shows that it’s a personal matter for you trying to discredit me with whatever… Won’t work by the way :slight_smile:

2 Likes
5172

29 posts about PoS were merged into an existing topic: Zooko talking about PoS

5183

maths time? let’s do some!

Right now zcash diff is 40M.
With this diff one z9 mini will produce 10.5 ZEC coins in ONE year.
Electricity needed for year of mining equals ~2.5 ZEC (at 0.15usd per kwh).
Result = 8 ZEC coins profit for 12 months of mining.
z9 mini with psu, taxes and delivery will be little over 1000 usd.
8 zec coins right now (124usd) = 992 usd.
Questions:

  • will z9mini survive 1 year of mining?
  • what will be z9mini value after 1 year?
  • will difficulty go up?
  • does z9 mini have any other use than mining existing equihash algo?
  • what is the point of buying z9mini, waiting, mining, considering you can buy amount of zcash z9 will give in a year for less?

When you answered this questions, please try comparing it with GPU.

I was telling this very clear in may - asics are good only for asic producers, this is one way street.
ASIC mining and GPU mining have literally nothing in common.

One is about greedy money making and roi, and the other is accessible to anyone, anywhere, fair and predictable!

We still have enough GPU hashrate around to make right decision - protect ZCASH from ASICS.

1 Like
5184

Actually there is nothing to compare as you wrote. It’s only a calculation for the Z9 mini, nothing else. With what to compare? What numbers?

If you want to compare it you have to make at least 2 calculations so someone can indeed compare something as you asked to do… Just with this, there is nothing to compare.

Or is this meant to be a response to Trololino’s POS calculations?

5185

please think. those questions do not make sense if you compare to GPU.
gpu has a real 2yr warranty;
lifespan - there are people mining ok 5yrs+ at 100% fan speed;
gpu has value no matter what will happen with equihash;
gpu has multiple use in crypto and in rest of the world;
people producing this hardware seem not to stick their nose into everything;
distribution is already fairly spread over the planet and so on…
this is why gpu can not be compared to asic, which is about roi only.

it seems that you are alone who does not understand the point im trying to make.

so what are the benefits of asics again?
why exactly do we have to stick to them?

5187

it’s asic thread. you have nice moves, seriously, dragging in third component (pos), comparing asics and gpus in such a way they look pretty similar… but you forget that your magic does not work on me :slight_smile:

fact is that ASICs are ~10 times worse than GPU’s in terms of accessibility, predictability, manipulation.
And I can see no benefits from decision to stick with ASIC network.