Thanks for linking the articles, but the one from Vitalik is just a statement he made, he does not go into any facts or details about why he thinks this in the article. He then goes on to talk about PoW mining pools, nothing about PoS.
The second article is talking about PoW, shovel vs bulldozer.
A shovel simply can’t do the work that a giant bulldozer can. If you’re hiring yourself out, generally you’re going to get paid more if you’re hiring yourself out with a bulldozer than a shovel. Why? Because you can do more work with a bulldozer.
How is this any different than owning 1 PoS coin(shovel), vs 1 million PoS coins(bulldozer) for Mr.Rich guy? The 1 million coins will do more work…
So why do I think the rich get richer less with POS? With mining the super wealthy can invest in research and produce expensive machines (etc) that give them an ever increasing advantage over average Joe. That can’t be done with POS. There are no ASICS. You can’t invest in better staking technology. You can’t price others out of staking.
Once again, another article with no facts and lots of opinion. There is still alot of problems with PoS system right now and I do not think they are ready. Yes there is ways to limit staking, but there is also many ways around each of them limits.
So far this is why I think GPUs have been the best at PoW. You will not see a GPU increase in performance x10 over the older version. ProgPoW is a good start in this direction.
You missed the point here. It’s not about performance, it’s about how much money is needed to buy a GPU or an Asic. As a private miner you pay at least twice the price for a gpu/asic and another twice the price to maintain it versus the big mining farms.
With POS there is no more such advantage. The coin price is for all the same, your grandma has to pay the same price for a given coin than Bill Gates. The price is the same no matter if you buy 1 coin or 1.000 coins.
With whatever POW algo this is not the case. As an example for you mining 1.000 X-Coins it costs you lets say USD 10.000 in hardware/electricity and for the big mining farm mining these 1.000 X-Coins cost 5.000 USD. Now with the same investment they got twice as much coins through POW, and this day by day…
Hence the rich gets richer argument is not one in favour of POW, actually it’s one that favours more POS, absolutly obviously.
And just as a sidenote about POWprog, it might be a good algo versus asics for now possible. But like on all POW algos, only the top coin on the given algo will be secure. All other smaller coins will face the same problem as they had bevor soon or late.
This is completely false, you think people buying millions of dollars worth of coins dont get a deal on them, but people that buy the same amount of hardware do? Its called OTC trading.
Actually it’s exactly like this. You don’t get a bigger discount if you buy for 1M ZEC for example other than eventually a little private deal with an exchange that lowers your taker fee, that’s it. When i buy hardware for 1M be sure i get at very least a deal of 30% if not more, and than another ~20% Vat i get returned from taxes. Makes at very least 50%, same goes with electricity later, while most of us pay 0.1+ kw/h i doubt that these big mining farms pay even 0.05 per kw/h…
This is probly still better than a full PoS system.
Atleast with buying mining hardware the mega farm takes a huge risk investing in hardware that might never ROI. The hardware will also have a limited lifetime of effectiveness, probly less than 3 years. You dont get a huge chunk of the rewards by just sitting on your PoS wallet holding more coins than anyone else for the lifetime of the coin.
There is alot more risk involved in a giant mining farm than the average person. PoS is a rich get richer scheme by setup, to say otherwise is misleading. Alot of PoS also expect you to lock up X amount of coins as a minimum to start. How many people have thousands of dollars sitting around to lock up into crypto.
Ethereum as an example again.
Staking will initially require a minimum deposit of 1,500 ETH, approximately $1.065 million at the time of this writing (May 2018), which puts it out of the reach of the average user and into the domain of collaborative staking efforts and so-called “whales”.
Im sure that makes it so 99% of the people here are unable to PoS mine ethereum when it changes over to a PoS system. Who has 1mill they can lock up into a wallet, but this is good for the average person I guess!
No strong points for PoS, or similar to PoS solutions? Are you kidding me? lol
Multiple time more transactions per second with PoS, PoA, Po* vs. PoW. This is actually a very strong point if you can make several 1000 transactions per second vs. 10-30 which is laughable if we think about it with PoW.
PoS is way more energy efficient than PoW, PoA even more than PoS. This is not only an argument for what we pay for electricity, what someone can safe in money, it’s just greener than PoW. Not sure for you, but for me not paying USD 5.000-6.000 for electricity is a strong point. I pay about USD 6.000 per month for electricity and i gladly prefer using that money to invest directly in buying coins than feeding energy monopolist consortiums.
No special hardware needed. Not only pay we again FIAT for outside crypto hardware and feed other big companies with it, but we have to invest into hardware, i make no difference here with gpu and asic. With asics someone can add that the money somehow is spend to a crypto company while with gpu you have a general purpose piece of hardware. Doesn’t matter much, for both you have to pay again with FIAT, again money that could be used directly in crypto for buying coins. I could make x examples on how only this is more equal to larger parts of the world than PoW.
I will make only 1: Let’s say you have USD 1.000 available (this is a huge amount of money in most parts of the world!). Now someone could buy exactly 8 ZEC with (asic example) or 5 ETH (gpu example) and begin to stake or just use it. Now let’s do the math with PoW. How far are you getting with USD 1.000 and how long does it take to mine 8 ZEC or 5 ETH.
With USD 1,000 you buy 1 Z9 mini with taxes, shipping …, or 1x 1080ti. Eventually some bucks left to cover some electricity costs but not enough for sure, so there is another expense coming soon or late. You have to mine right now about ~200 days for 1 Eth, makes about 3 years for 5 ETH for the ZEC i even don’t want to make a calculation, lol. Not only it take longer (obviously, lol) to get the same amount of crypto, it’s even more expensive by now. Actually the amount of electricity for several years must be paid extra, again money i can invest into the PoS coin directly. Not a strong argument? Fine, continue to mine for several years now to get the same amount than buying a coin
Security. For a 51% attack you need to BUY 51% of the coins, incredible expensive. With PoW you need only temporary 25+% hashrate, incredible cheap compared to PoS. With PoW only the top coin of a given algo is mostly secure (even not garantee!), on PoS it doesn’t matter anymore. I can give you examples of about 20+ attacked coins on PoW in 2018 but you can’t give me 1 of a successfull attacked PoS coin. Right now nearly every attacked coin is moving to PoS for exactly that reason. Security not a strong point?
Transaction Fees. Incredible expensive on PoW compared to PoS/PoA. What’s better for mass adoption? High or low transaction fees? Not a strong point?
No more fees on miningpools, secret pools, secret mining and and and. It’s even a security factor as well. A PoS coin doesn’t have to worry anymore about concentrated hashrate on a given mining pool. Sure, not the strongest point, but still a point in favour for PoS.
No more mine & dump. Right now it’s possible that you are the largest ZEC miner and even don’t hold 1 single ZEC at all. There is no need to hold the coin you mine. This would for sure have a positive effect on price as the selling pressure to cover costs is no more a factor. Not a strong point?
Accumulating bigger stakes: Righ now in PoW the big mining farms or the producers their own just have to get more hardware, use lower electricity cost and they are able to accumulate larger stakes of a given coin for less investment. The more they invest the cheaper they mine. In PoS it’s reverse. The more coins a given actor wants to buy the higher the price raises for him to accumulate the big stake. Means that while in PoW the rich gets the coins by mining cheaper and cheaper in PoS he gets them more and more expensive. Not a strong point for the rich get richer argument? It’s for sure more fair in PoS than in PoW, even it’s still far away from perfect, but i doubt we can rich perfect in a capitalism world anway.
Preparing the next post tomorrow maybe with some more strong points if these aren’t enough, lol.
Pretty unfair post for several reasons. First of all that 1.500 ETH is years ago and was lowered many times so far. The last minimum ETH stake i’am aware of was 32 (if i remember right) and right now the devs are discussing it to lower it to 12 or 10 ETH. Still too high in my opinion. But your 1.500 ETH argument is a pure FUD argument, untrue and not valid!! The counterpart would be if i tell you go mine with your 1080ti some BTC, lol.
Actually my personal opinion is that the minimum stake should be 1 unit of whatever currency, 1 BTC, 1 ETH, 1 ZEc, whatever.
I can’t fully counter the rich gets richer part as it might still be true to some extend. The important part it’s less rich get richer compared to PoW and that’s the important part. (arguments see 2 posts above!).
About your second part that you need to lock a minimum amount of coins. Other than the planned ETH PoS and NLG i’am not aware of some other PoS that needs a minimum locked amount. Hence this is not needed at all, but maybe used for a given design. But than again, as you take ETH as an example ETH is planning to reduce the stake for big stakers, means the more you stake the less percentage you get and this is an argument against rich get richer with PoS as at least their are mechanisms, designs and ways to reduce it, like maximum stake as well. None such mechanism and design is possible in PoW, means in PoW all gates are open for the rich get richer argument…
It’s missleading that you don’t take into account these factors and real arguments.
How can you say it’s not efficient if you don’t know what kind of hardware, what amount, what whatever i have. You even don’t know my kw/h price but conclude it’s not efficient? You make a result out of a formula where you know none of the factors? I guess you call this a strong argument, right?
you wrote about your electricity rate. do not remember?
maybe too much posts for your memory? huh?
alex, fundamentally you are a dreamer.
you take bad points from gpu pow, paint them bigger, and compare with your projection of what Pos should be like in theory.
you are having pink nightmares.
POS is the way to go in the future, but it needs work. fact.
GPU POW - works right now, predictable, fair, secure.
ASIC POW - works, but much less predictable, much more unfair as a result.
Yes, POS is the future, but right now best solution gpu pow.
I remember my electricity rate for sure, and it’s not 0.15 for sure as well, it’s going to be 0.15 but it’s still 0.12, not that it matters much. Still how did you come to the conclusion that with a given kw/h price and a given final electricity price my mining is not efficient?
I wonder about the final conclusion you made your own, that POS is the way to go in future, but actually try to counter all arguments i use in favour of POS?
After we came to the conclusion let’s work on a POS design that fits perfectly. Of course they need still work, but without beginning that work it won’t be done it’s own, right?
Nothing bad that GPU/Asic Pow still works for you, (actually it works for me as well, but i see the end allready) and you are free to continue as long as you want or ROI (whatever is fits you), but others like me, just prepare for PoS sooner, easy as that. Does this really make me a dreamer? In my opinion it makes me more a realist than a dreamer.
look friend, all you want to say may be put in much less text.
in may, when asics announced, you registered here, and wrote about 500 posts in favour of asics over gpu. And your arguments were very convincing. So convincing some poor souls actually believed and bought asic.
now (just some months later) it has become obvious for you that asics arent way to go, POS will save us all. And again writing huuuuge posts trying to convince anyone.
you forget, that argumentation like yours, put ZCASH in the position where it has to be saved in the first place.
you forget that moving to asics was big mistake.
you forget that you were huge supporter of this move.
i’ve been back to silent reader since asic is the winner. i’m agree with you and can’t deny that convincing people is @boxalex perk. i also hate the fact he turn around so fast after he knew that it was a mistake and about to do the same again. community lost its member already, i’m personally staying just to get update about sapling and where it headed.
goodluck to you mate, maybe you’re the only one left defending gpu miner here
Not asics aren’t the way to go, PoS is just more advanced by now than PoW. Than back when i was pro asic i wasn’t aware of all the advantages PoS has over PoW, simple as that. Just yesterday i learned about PoA.
Does this mean because i was pro PoS i can’t think PoA provides even better solutions and is maybe superior to PoS? Sorry, this is not going to work that way that someone hasn’t the right to change views when something better is on the horizont.
This has, by now, nothing to do with asics, absolutly nothing. I even can’t see, from ZEC point of view, that it was a bad decision to “allow” them until something better is found. No need to waste resources for something that might or might not work until properbly researched. And here comes the PoS move that could be the solution, maybe. It’s not me who decides that, neither you. All we are doing is disucussing it, if you think that convincing someone happens here on the forum than you overestimate endless our impact.I could even bet that none of the voters or at best less than 10% of them, read here. It has about 0 impact what we discuss here. These voters make up their own mind without me and you.
And by the way, Zcash position by now isn’t bad, marketcap rank 19, perfect in my opinion in a bear market.
I just share my views on Pos, nothing less, nothing more. Of course people can continue to write nonsens like 1.500 ETH minimum stake for ETH, but that doesn’t change the whole fact that it’s allready 10.
PoW supporters can still argue that transactions per second don’t matter and keep favouring coins with 20 transactions per second only, no problelm for me, i will go with these that offer 1000’s of transactions.
No problem if you are ok with high transaction fees, especially in a bullish time, i prefer low transaction fees. No problem if you want to continue feeding hardware producers and your local electricity company, but me is investing from now directly into projects.
No problem if you still believe PoW is the future for blockchain, daily moving projects from PoW to PoS must be as stupid as me than, lol.
There is no problem staying with gpu Pow actually, there is BTG (its still alive right?) and there is Monero and for sure some others that might forever stay gpu PoW. Don’t worry, be happy
Seriously, that one makes you look fun. How can you claim my mining efficiency without knowing my hardware? Cristall ball? Magic? Bad thing is that you are not joking even or i would have a laugh about it, lol.
I only can counter here. How can you speak about efficiency about others without knowing anything about their hardware? You just make it up the final end price, lol. Following your logic everybody paying over USD 5.000 per month for electricity has no efficient biz?
I like such argumentation as it makes me always laugh, even in bad mood
