Let’s talk about ASIC mining


#5362

There is not only one miner and there is always a best solution so will you screw the next winning company again? The problem is the architecture that limits who can mine. About the kill switch coment, lets say we only allow gpu mining, whoever takes this serious will buy thousand of gpus so the government can ask as well the best gpu factory to put a kill switch or control. The big problem I see as in any country is clear rules and smooth transitions are needed to attract investment. If the comunity changes the rules of the game (so far i don’t see the need) they must allow enough time for the transition to happen smooth, in this case make a clear anouncement and from there wait a year or 2 so all who bought Asic miners can recover their investment and will have loyalty to keep supporting Zcash. If we want something decentralized you could only let x amount of miners per IP address and problem solved. Has someone sit for a second to think in a real solution for decentralization? If someone has more adquisition power they will buy watever technology needed to mine more than the rest and desentralization goes to trash again. So in my opinion there should be a long time before we find a valid technological solution to be good to justify a development.


#5363

Trololino, GPU miners can move to other coin. Asic miners are more loyal to a coin than gpu miners that as soon as they find a more profitable coin will make the jump


#5364

Dont make me laugh dude, and ASIC miners arent jumping off and on to other Equihash coins as soon as its more profitable ?


#5365

Asic miners don’t have much options. You are right, they jump as well but not so far they have lets say 10 options not a thousand so the risk is higher. What I am trying to point out is that stability is needed to help the coin attract investment and kicking out ASICS first doesn’t look good at all because breaks trust in who wants to invest money and second does not ensure a solution for decentralization. Thanks for your response Trololino


#5366

How does one measure “loyalty” anyway?

Are you more loyal if you mine at a loss rather than mothballing equipment?

Are you more loyal if you never sell your mined coins but instead take on fiat debt to cover operating costs?


#5367

I dont know why people keep repeating this. ASICs are loyal in the same way GPUs were loyal when ASIC came out for Zcash, they stayed untill other coin were better. When other coins become more profitable, they will switch to them. Its all about ROI/Profits with ASICs. Its the only thing they are made for.

Yes ASICs have less options for switching. But just because there is alot of coins you can mine with a GPU does not mean they are profitable. Alot of the profitable GPU coins are no longer profitable.

Kicking out the GPUs was ok? But kicking out the ASICs breaks trust? Trust was broken months ago…
People are not investing into mining equipment like they were last year. You are much better off just buying the coins right now.


#5368

If you are mining at a loss or not sell your mined coins is because you believe in the coin has a higher value than current market value or other reasons. I believe loyalty is a feeling of support hard to measure. But an ASIC has a higher probability of staying in a coin than jumping to other independent of the motivation behind who buy the ASICS (which probably was profit) but they saw value in some of the coins they could mine because they had to be aware there is no much place to go so there is some more loyalty there than a GPU mining option (you could also say decision to buy ASIC was pure greed or many buy without thinking much in a plan B). That is why I am not investing in Obelisk, they just screw a lot of people greedy or not is wrong. Transitions must be slower to minimize harm. I don’t want to go to far from the main topic, hope you get my point. If they never let ASICS enter from the beginning was also ok but again kicking out ASICs doesn’t garanty decentralization. Thx for jumping in the chat bitcartel!


#5369

Is not an easy problem. I agree the term loyal is not exactly what I should have use, the thing is who chooses to buy ASICs is taking a higher risk than buying GPUs and I called it loyalty put any other name is ok. I was just interested of mentioning a smooth transition is better and more correct than a sudden change.
About kicking out anyone from the blue is wrong, hopefully GPU had not a significant downturn in profitability when leaving ZCash, but we can only do things right in the future we can’t work with the past. Good discussion Lisfin.


#5370

My definition of loyalty would be a person who buys a ASIC only to mine Zec, even at a loss. How many people that purchased a ASIC can say that? I doubt any of them can. ASICs are all about profits.

In my opinion the people that purchased a Equihash ASIC should be called Gamblers/Risk-Takers more than loyal customers. Alot of them pre-ordered even before they knew if Zcash was going to fork or not, seems kinda foolish to me. Do you praise people who take a huge financial risks?

Based on how other ASICs turned out, your better off just buying the coins.


#5371

ASIC miners have less opportunity than GPU miners and some- like Zooko used to say- believe that is a good thing. Everything, however, has pros and cons. Since they have less opportunity, they will fight more to keep their profitability intact. Does anybody need more evidence than what happened to Bitcoin? If it were still GPU mined do you think it would have proceeded the way that it has? Zooko has obviously changed his mind on this subject due to mining centralization.


#5372

Ok if we call them gamblers then lets not harm the gamblers so they and others can bet on us again in the future :wink:
I believe there is a level of risk I praise, but my opinion of who to prise is irrelevant. I am just Interested in spread awareness of minimizing harm when a transition comes by giving enough time between information release and its execution and putting effort in tasks that add value because in fact those are positive for the ecosystem and not only my opinion.


#5373

If ASICS are so loyal, explain to me this Zcash difficulty chart :slight_smile:

Difficulty dropping from 47M to 30M in one day. What happened to all this hashrate? They switched to other Equihash coins today.


#5374

It dropped from 2.3 million to 1.7 million hash briefly. What coins can absorb 600 million hashrate? It was more likely an ASIC manufacturer, a large farm had a power outage or a pool went down.


#5375

Well one can only guess, but if its a large farm that has 1/3 of Zcash hashrate, we should be worried :wink: But this happens all the time if you continue looking at the chart.


#5376

I agree to this, just the possibilities why this happens are some more:

  • Nicehash 200-250M are switching for sure
  • Miningpoolhub are switching too, another ~70M that can switch
  • other auto-switch pools like mining dutch, zpool and and and …
  • Users using AwesomeMiner software and set it to autoswitch

I bet these cause the main fluctation in hash power, just normally after they switch automaticly to the most profitable equihash coin in case these spikes are repeating.

If it’s a spike out of nowhere than my guess goes as well to a producer selling it’s equihash asics, testing, power or internet failure, mining pool problem, whatever…


#5377

I know there are miners in this thread, anyone want to help Flypool test Sapling Private Payouts? :wink:


#5378

GPU miners get their own algo with the Blossom upgrade in Oct. 2019. Now everbody should be happy, expect me as their is no POS planned :joy:


#5379

Ther’ll be more grants, a year goes fast my friend! :blush:


#5380

Buy more Asic!:crazy_face:


#5381

No way, not 1 cent more into hardware …
But you can buy more GPU’s now … :slight_smile: