Let’s talk about ASIC mining


#5483

Okay,

I will explain it in simple terms.
1 - I am not joking.
2 - Nothing I can say will erase those years. nothing you can say can bring them back.
3 - No, Zooko’s video chat was earlier than that. Bricking every device that is supporting your network is not just a bad idea, it is the king of bad ideas.
4 - Lie -

This is a straight up lie. Do you want this to be true so much you missed daira’s, str4d and other key developers we very anti ASIC, but I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative.

5 - I asked if we could let this thread die, because it is you me and box arguing like kids. What is there of value left? it all moved to the other thread. keep the thread open. makes no odds. I never asked for this thread to be buried. This is a Lie. There is little to add to this thread and this conversation. (the other thread is the one with information in it.)

6 - I should throw away money because f your “principles”.

7 - lol, you are so much more zcash than me. I sold my 1070’s for vega 56’s didn’t cost me a penny. I hold a lot of zec. what are you doing in this thread? what are you trying to prove/accomplish here? I am trying to help out with testing. you are moaning and getting aggressive. which one of us is trying to do something positive?

Again you just look aggressive and confused.

What are you trying to say? that people who own asics should all turn them off, so you can gpu mine? some argue that PoW is a bad design. I am not one of them.

boxalex writes pages each day. it could be on PoS or trading, should he be limited to the number of posts or words he can use?

I don’t really want to have to deal with your aggression, so I am not going to respond to more posts that are attacking in nature.

Thanks.


#5484

No, i don’t want to investigate anything related to POW, it’s a dead horse, no future, old fashioned, outdated, senseless … I leave this battlefield for you guys that still have hope that POW mining is great and makes you rich while having your legs on the table, lol.

About 50% of my POW coins are allready converted to POS/POA/similar design Coins and it makes me way more comfortable.


#5485

you are mixing asic pow and gpu pow for a reason, bro.

there is a difference.

one is born-dead, other lives OK.


#5486

You fit it up pretty well. The agression some people show makes a real dialog, discussion and exchange of information and thoughts nearly impossible.

It’s even not a honest exchange of thoughts, while you believe them and their motivation, they questions yours, just to have another phantom argument for their crusade …


#5487

Whatever you want … long live GPU POW mining, have fun …:joy:


#5488

what dialog?

it is clearly you are the one who can not see difference in behaviour of asic coin and gpu coin.

it’s always alright in terms of value in the second case.

but you mix them up.

my being here is an answer to your monologue.


#5489

More to follow soon …


#5490

I have known of dave Carlson for a long time. This was only a matter of time. Im surprised it took this long. I don’t like to see people lose their livelihoods, I am genuinely sorry that happened to you (twice? didnt megabigpower fail too?)

Hey dave remember that 155btc refund you owe me? I do.


#5491

what else is there to say. who’s going to mine with with asic or gpu at this point. Get a new algo going , or move to PoS or zbelisk mining


#5492

#5493

What i find in this text is that they pay electricity 3 cents…or 4 times less then me …with ASIC which are easy to move and install even in millions that lead to total centralisation


#5494

Agreed, the same got my attention too. Actually it’s not always 3 cents but could be 2 cents as well if i unterstood the article correctly.

As said in the past, electricity prices will dominate the geographical centralization …


#5495

Bitmain do not sell asics for ~2 weeks.

Price of Zec fall slowly during this period.

Average Zec difficulty rises.

Ain’t this situation just beatiful?


#5496

antpool starts again to behave strange, always interesting to see in what it is evolving


#5497

Here is a question /statement about all of the ASIC’s that are being shut down due to costs. If thousands of ASIC’s are being shut down, doesn’t that translate into those still mining are getting a slightly larger share?


#5498

Sad, just sad that they are stilling trying to price gouge

image


#5499

That’s because there are suckers every where on this planet!


#5500

Seems relevant to this topic somehow.


#5501

YES! I still read the thread every day, but almost never post anymore. It is very amusing, and does provide a small window into this emotional topic, for those who are still debating. Most of the arguments are heavily laced with emotion, but that in itself is a valuable data point.

I respect your opinion. Your position is always well thought out and articulated (sometimes a bit verbose, but very understandable given its not your first language). However, you have yet to present any credible, tangible, or convincing DATA on why POW is a dead horse.

This is my opinion, POW is not dead, POW is genius, and directly ties crypto to the real world in a very tangible way. POS will never get off the ground. The POS formula points the cost of consensus back to itself, back to its own blockchain, quite silly if you think about it.

I feel your frustration, I too felt betrayed by Zcash and the promise of ASIC resistance. However, whats done is done, Zcash has gone down a path that cant be changed easily. We just need to get over it and move on.

However, I saw the ASIC issue coming almost two years ago, see my posts below. I find it interesting the Zcash hash rate continues to climb when even ETH and ETC are falling. Its another data point, a sad one, and I feel bad for those who now have no choice, but then they chose to buy the ASIC’s.

My posts from Feb of 2017

I don’t have a single ASIC, and I am happily running all my GPU’s 24X7, even my old RX480’s (but they are coming to end of life). My overall operation is still profitable and I am quite happy to keep mining with my GPU’s (just not on Zcash). I hold some Zcash, but also 15 other coins. Proof of storage will be going live first quarter next year, Proof of Compute is coming fast too, most of the blockchain Utility space cant be done with ASIC’s. The small miner is not dead, you just need to diversify, make a profit here, take a loss there, be patient, keep watching the technology, get involved with the ones that have merit. It will pay off in the end.


#5502

Where to begin? :slightly_smiling_face:

The POS formula points the cost of consensus back to itself, back to its own blockchain, quite silly if you think about it.

Actually not if you think about POW and how it’s working, it’s no different. The cost of consesus processing in POW is literally the same in POS/POS likes. ALL, that hashpower in POW isn’t used for the consensus, it’s used for the “find block race first”. This part gets elimated as it’s a all over a useless one.

For example: Remove ALL Asics from SHA-256 and replace them with lets say 100 PC’s to do the job. Nothing would change. The BTC network would work as it works with millions of Asics… Basicly it would be the same that you have 100.000 workers in your factory that does the very same work another factory does with 100 workers…

This said, in my opinion the real cost of conensus isn’t different at all. It’s the cost of finding the block that is different in my opinion.

POW is genius, and directly ties crypto to the real world in a very tangible way.

I agree to the genius part, it is indeed actually, but it’s by now outdated, missused, industrialized and flawed. For BTC so it be, they invented it, they use it, they are mostly stuck with it. But how about thinking about it, not from a miner’s point of view. Let’s forget for a bit that we both are miners. Forget as well that we both have the skill to run some kind of mining operations but let’s just be the average joe without special hardware, special knowledge and so on. What does mining tell us than? Just … nothing. It doesn’t tie crypto to the real work in a very tangible way, actually it’s doing the reverse to the average joe interested in crypto.

In my opinion POW was a good way to get the project out of the ground, to proof it, to test it, to see it’s strong and weak points. I’am even ok with to use it for decentralization, but that’s no longer a valid point. It’s time to move on with crypto evolution as by now and today is flawed, absolutly centralized and it gets worse and worse. POW has reched it’s limits, it’s even over it’s limits, we just failed to realize it in time blinded by a nice tempoary income and the wish it will never end :grinning: (myself including here!)

However, you have yet to present any credible, tangible, or convincing DATA on why POW is a dead horse.

Data:

  • By today you only have 12 pure POW alt coins/tokens ledt in the top 50 crypto currencies, all others use different consensus models showing clearly that POW isn’t anymore the best solution. In 2019 these will mostly be less either with other none POW coins pushing into top 50 or some POW coins switching to another consensus design, see ETH for example.
  • Mining operations: POW isn’t decentralized anymore. Having over 75%, mostly over 80% today, of the mining operations in china is clear centralization.
  • Mining Pools: Again, absolutly centralized. For ZEC: 2 miningpools (China) have nearly 50%, 3 mining pools have allready over 50%, 6 mining pools have allready over 75%, all in China and USA. Pure centralization. The whole princip of decentralization is compromised with mining pools.
  • Security: Only a handfull POW coins are currently real secure and can not be attacked: BTC, ETH, LTC, ZEC, SIA, ETN, just the top coins of the given algo. Absolutly all other coins are exposed.
  • POW Transactions per second. Laughable with POW.
  • POW transaction speed. Laughable with POW.

Abstract:

  • POW mining dies slowly but surely for several reasons:
    a.) more and more hardware is produced as their are no limits, lowering more and more profits.
    b.) at higher coin prices point a.) is activated even stronger
    c.) at lower coin prices miners with higher electricity costs are forced out of mining, leading to further centralization of geographicaly low electricity prices, see China with 0.02$ per kw/h as an example.
    d.) hardware can’t ROI anymore. In best case, see ZEC hardware, batch 1, maybe batch 2 ROI, nothing else beyound that. How much sense does this make? With POW ming today you feed once the hardware producer and than daily the electricity companies with FIAT. Means we pay more FIAT for mining as we get in crypto, absolutly sensless by now and today. This was ok 5, 3 or 1 year back, but no more today.
    e.) Rich get richer, absolutly true for POW. It’s very expotional in POW while compared to POS it’s ~linear. The rich get richer argument is mostly used against POS, but actually it fits POW way better.
    f.) Too many attack vectors possible/available with POW.
    g.) Immense sell pressure with POW. Let’s take right now ETH. You mine ETH with a 1080ti. At 0.13$ per kw/h the whole mining reward 0.60$ is used for electricity cost. The miner is left with exactly 0.00 profit. Senseless. On ZEC right now about half the mining reward is used for electricity (but it’s just the beginning as more asics are coming!). Senseless.
    h.) Mining Pools %. These lower even our rewards. Average around 1-4% for what? For centralizing our hashpower? Senseless.
    i.) Pool Cannibalization, read more in the attached very interesting Document…
    j.) POW provides much room for bad actors in general, best example the current BCH “war” and all it’s facettes, including mining pools, exchanges, hardware manufactors and big players influencing things.
    k.) - z.) in next post … :grinning:

attack
centralized