Let’s talk about ASIC mining


#5463

I not mine from yesterday…i started mining 6 years ago with AMD 7970…That card was profitable and did not change here for 5 years…until Bitmain take over whole crypto world.
GPU buying crazies only lasted few months…before that and after you could buy any GPU you want.
So for me GPU and ASIC tottaly different stories …ASIC just force to invents constantly and chase ROI or die


#5464

Sure, why not. I will try to make one for GPU time and one for Asic time now:

Network hashrate of ZEC March 2018, than back it should have been mainly still a gpu coin: 538 MH/s
That’s about 717,000x 1080ti’s
which use about 107,550 kw/h (per hour)
at a price of let’s say 0.1$ on average 10,755$ per hour
makes per day: 258,120$
makes per month: 8,001,720$
makes per year: 96,020,640$ paid in electricity just on ZEC with GPU’s
than the price for the 1080ti’s (using here some conservative 750$): 537,750,000$
even not including here all the other hardware like risers, SD’s, RAM, PSU’s!
Now we have: 633,770,640$ driven out only by the ZEC GPU network than back.
while the market cap was ~ mid March 2018: $750,000,000

Network hashrate of today, with ZEC Asics: ~2.5 GH/s
That’s about 200,000x Z9 minis
which use about 60,000 kw/h (per hour)
at a price of let’s say 0.1$ on average 6,000$ per hour
makes per day: 144,000$
makes per month: 4,464,000$
makes per year: 53,568,000$ paid in electricity just on ZEC with Z9 mini Asics
than the price for the Z9 minis (using here some conservative 800$): 160,000,000$
we can even add here some additonal 10% for the PSU’s needed, ~ 16,000,000$
even not including here shipping costs, taxes, fees,
Now we have: 229,568,000$ driven out only by the ZEC Asic network.
while the market cap is right now: $337,467,657

P.S.: and edit: In both cases it’s insane what we miners did. On gpu’s we had about 85% of the market cap given for hardware and electricity in FIAT. On Asics it’s right now 69% but this number will increase and mostly get into the 80-90% range as well. That’s just insane if you think about it.

Someone can only imagine what crypto prices we had if all that “Mining money” wasn’t forced out but we did bought coins with it… Instead of an gpu & asic and low electricity demand we would have a ZEC demand…


#5465

Mate, i understand your point and where you are coming from, but this right now has no more any influence in the POW mining as it is today. Without asics the final picture would be the same as long as it’s POW mining and electricity and hardware is needed. IF there wasn’t asics at all, just to imagine, we all would have bought more GPU’s leading to the very same effect again. Just all the money for asic hardware and asic electricity would be gpu/fpga hardware and electricity, but the very end result would be the very same: Money is driven/forced out of crypto for hardware and electricity. It’s really simple.


#5466

with GPU’s process flows much more comfortable for everyone. people with expensive electricity slowly being pushed out of the network. it is self regulated. with asics network is bitmain regulated.
bitmain does everything, from producing hardware to not just trading on the market, but pump and dump coins.

your calculations are accurate, but it really matters how you deliver information.

example
“than the price for the 1080ti’s (using here some conservative 750$): 537,750,000$”
vs
“than the price for the Z9 minis (using here some conservative 800$): 160,000,000$”

it looks dramatic. but… but its not objective.

the amount of 1080tis on the zec network does not mean that money needed for this GPU’s came or has to come from ZEC.
while amount of z9mini’s shows how much people are planning to drain exactly ZEC.

z9mini price i remember stayed pretty long time at 1999usd… and if you add this to calculations you will see that 200.000 units at this price is already $400.000.000… without delivery which always is, without fees and taxes which are never applied to your local GPU market, with real warranty, and so on…

Since may money coming one way really. And all that money taken from ZEC.

BITMAIN is our problem right now.

i am OK with POW, ProgPOW, GPU POW, POS, or whatever but please admit that we have to lose Bitmain as soon as possible. With GPU outcome would be MUCH better, imo.

With GPU on today situation, people with expensive energy will try to find it cheaper or stop, with asics people are just spending money on more asics, and today’s network hashrate is just the beginning, you can not compare this to GPU network. You can’t even buy equihash asic right now, but many people willing to buy… so very soon you will have to adapt your calculations.

I think you just continue to dress up the problem.

And very many people fall into this.

Sad.


#5467

Hi,

You got me thinking and I think you missed a few key points.

It seems you are expecting mass adoption now. This will take years.

Have you looked at the uptake in the UK? scan.co.uk one of the largest hardware providers (think uk newegg) accepts bitcoin.

CCLOnline.com have pledged to integrate it.

Even major players like Microsoft experimented with it for xbox live - but dropped it due to volatility

The demand is there, the tech just is not polished enough. Although that is changing. zec and eth seem to work well with each other. then you have opposite with the whole btc/bcash

Also you seem to forget for every dollar that I sell my crypto for (gaining fiat) someone else bought it (losing fiat)

Right, but you don’t need to know any of that to send to receive. just use electrum or other lightweight client. It is not for the masses now, but why not in the future? Tech always starts like this. it is up to the users and developers to make it “just work”

Thankfully something is happening about ICO’s and the SEC I cant find the article at the moment tho.

Double spends are not a problem. they are useful and a feature. I know we have mechanisms to unstick transactions, but the easiest way is to double spend with a higher fee. (well it used to be)

If you mean double spend attack - you can never fully mitigate this through code. It has to be part of your risk model (just like the one you make when you accept credit cards) It is the same as a 51% attack, it has to be part of your risk model for accepting that coin. if you require 20 conformations before you allow a deposit to be spent, you are probably safe.

the crypto space is still very new. it will get there. There are lots of talented people working on some great stuff. Once it is working as intended it will take an equally skilled team of UI coders and Human Interface designers to get it into peoples hands

lets walk before we run.


#5468

with GPU’s process flows much more comfortable for everyone. people with expensive electricity slowly being pushed out of the network. it is self regulated. with asics network is bitmain regulated.

You get again centralization with it, end of the day, for the one who is pushed out of mining business does it really matter that much? The german GPU miner with 0.33$ per kw/h got pushed out by someone with 0.05$ and the asic miner got pushed out by a big mining farm and/or Bitmain. The end result is the same, they are pushed out. Both are leading to geographical centralization. I’am not going to argue again which is worse, as both are worse what you call self regulating is geographical centralization in my book.

your calculations are accurate, but it really matters how you deliver information.

They are not as there is no way to make an exact calculation without knowing the exact hardware used, electricity prics and and and… But the purpose is just to give an idea on what’s happening in both cases. It’s not favouring asics over gpu or the other way, it’s purpose is to show that massive money flow into FIAT is happening daily.

the amount of 1080tis on the zec network does not mean that money needed for this GPU’s came or has to come from ZEC.

Actually it doesn’t matter in my calculation and/or overview as a summing up the money flow out of crypto into FIAT hardware. You are principally right with your assumption, but in case the next month (just for example) 25% of the ZEC gpu’s mine ETH than you take that amount away from ZEC and add it to ETH, which again is the same amount that left crypto. The ZEC example was just made because he asked for it, i wouldn’t have made it exactly for this reason, to avoid further Asic/GPU arguing which is NOT the point of the calculations.

while amount of z9mini’s shows how much people are planning to drain exactly ZEC.

Mostly yes, but than again, the idea is to show how much hardware/electricity is used in FIAT. To make the Z9 mini calculation more accurate i had to use all current equihash coins and make the calculation, but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter for the big picutre at the end. It would matter if i compare gpu vs. asics, but that’s not what i’am doing here, even not commenting on it.

z9mini price i remember stayed pretty long time at 1999usd… and if you add this to calculations you will see that 200.000 units at this price is already $400.000.000… without delivery which always is, without fees and taxes which are never applied to your local GPU market, with real warranty, and so on…

No, the price of 1.999 USD was for the first batch, if i remember right about 11,000 units, than USD 800 for the following batches. To keep it simple i used USD 800 for all as the purpose is not to draw the perfect calculation or comparing it to gpu hardware but to show how much ~ US$ went out. It really doesn’t matter if it’s 2M more or less when we talk about hundreds of millions…To make it fair in the ZEC calculation i added the price for PSU’s, but as there is no way to get numbers for taxes, shipping, fees, even more as most miners are mostly in china without much shipping, tax, custom whatever anyway. However, to compensate this and to keep it simple i as well didn’t count PSU’s, SD’s, CPU’s, RAM, mainboards, risers whatever for GPU.
To fit it up short, in both cases, asics and gpu the needed money for hardware with all needed parts is way higher as the calculated one, be it due shipping or other needed parts that must be bought with FIAT, but as said, these numbers are scaring enough to get an idea what we are doing and who we feed actually.

Since may money coming one way really. And all that money taken from ZEC.
BITMAIN is our problem right now.
i am OK with POW, ProgPOW, GPU POW, POS, or whatever but please admit that we have to lose Bitmain as soon as possible. With GPU outcome would be MUCH better, imo.

That’s your point because we have different points of view here. You use it to compare asic vs. gpu, i use it just to see how much money is forced out either way. Sure, in your comparison you might find here or there something that looks better. In my comparison there is no better only a worst and more worst which both lead to the same result, just with different actors, time frames.

… you can not compare this to GPU network. You can’t even buy equihash asic right now, but many people willing to buy… so very soon you will have to adapt your calculations.

I don’t, i didn’t compare anything, you did. I just made 2 calculations to show that on both huge amounts of money is spend out of crypto into FIAT, nothing less, nothing more. You compare them, not me. For me the only important point is that in both cases huge, really huge amounts of money are driven out of crypto day by day. Just responding to this as it seems you have the impression me is comparing, which is not the case for sure!

I think you just continue to dress up the problem. And very many people fall into this. Sad.

Uhmmm, not sure what to answer here. I make some examples where i show that whether POW mining is used it drives out huge amounts of money and you accuse me to dress it up? Pretty unfair in my opinion.
For the 100th time, i don’t care what is used, if it’s gpu, asic or fpga, i don’t have to dress anything. The money flow out of crypto bothers me and at the end of the day for me it doesn’t matter if bitmain made some fiat or nvida, the point is that it’s not in crypto anymore.

What even do i bother answering when i get accused again anyway. That’s the sad part, that you take out of context something that has absolutly NOTHING to do in favouring asics or gpu’s or whatever but is just about moneyflow into FIAT…


#5469

nope, it’s not.

why you keep saying that cheap electricity means centralization?

even in germany are households that have too much solar panels and actually have power exceed.


#5470

first you say that you dont compare and then you post your conclusion. :grinning:

i point out that your numbers are accurate, but subjective, and do not reflect anything close to reality, if we talk about amount of money driven out.

I am pretty much convinced that it matters much more where money go, to community or to bitmain.


#5471

It seems you are expecting mass adoption now. This will take years.

It’s part of mass adoption in my opinion, no matter it’s a minor part maybe. Specialized hardware for selected PC freaks is for sure nothing that helps for mass adoption. You won’t see POW in some years, just be sure…

Have you looked at the uptake in the UK? scan.co.uk one of the largest hardware providers (think uk newegg) accepts bitcoin. CCLOnline.com have pledged to integrate it. Even major players like Microsoft experimented with it for xbox live - but dropped it due to volatility

That’s fine and the right way to go. I’am all for it. But than again, IF we spent daily less for electricity in FIAT for mining we would have more left in crypto for buying/purchasing/whatever with the crypto we have. Just make same vague calculation with mining 1 ETH for example you are using about 0.9 ETH for electricity and pay for it not with ETH but with FIAT. (just as an example, no correct backuped numbers here!).

IF there wasn’t this sell pressure that forces to exchange crypto to fiat to pay for hardware/electricity volatility mostly would be less, sell pressure absolutly for sure less and more crypto in our pockets to actually use it instead of exchanging it for FIAT to pay for it or using our FIAT savings for it instead of putting them into crypto.

The demand is there, the tech just is not polished enough. Although that is changing. zec and eth seem to work well with each other. then you have opposite with the whole btc/bcash

What demand mate? The only demand right now with POW is that you need FIAT to pay for electricity daily. It’s a demand in favour of FIAT, not ZEC/ETH/BTC/whatever.

Also you seem to forget for every dollar that I sell my crypto for (gaining fiat) someone else bought it (losing fiat)

I didn’t forget that for sure but didn’t want to make it more complicated as it is and to keep it simple. However as you mention it you leave me not much choice. Right now today at this time we have 23% buyers and 77% sellers across 62 market for ZEC. There is way less demand than supply, means price MUST drop, just logical and very simple. There is not 1 single argument that a price should raise will there is 2+ more supply than demand.
Additonally my calculation was for the POW miner who is mining, not buying or he wouldn’t mine at all, not that 1 excludes the other of course.
And 3rd, the one buying the ZEC again for FIAT is the trader on the exchange selling it again at some profit for FIAT. AT least this money stays more or less in crypto. But the money used in hardware and electricity is lost and gone forever from crypto space.

Right, but you don’t need to know any of that to send to receive. just use electrum or other lightweight client. It is not for the masses now, but why not in the future? Tech always starts like this. it is up to the users and developers to make it “just work” …

True and agreed, but this will be a slow process as long as resources are literally wasted on by now unimportant things. I said it in the past, highest priority should have easy to use wallets, ecspially cell phone wallets …

Thankfully something is happening about ICO’s and the SEC I cant find the article at the moment tho.

Totally agree, finally, but maybe too late … I have read the article by the way.

Double spends are not a problem. they are useful and a feature. I know we have mechanisms to unstick transactions, but the easiest way is to double spend with a higher fee. (well it used to be)

While for ZEC it’s currently not a problem in theory it is. Left alone 99% of all the other POW coins that are exposed to it due low hashrate. It’s a problem as long as it can happen. If i remember right from the last ZEC paper about attack protection mining pool rewards can be reversed, means that on a given pool if you by accident mined at the same time than an attacker tried to attack all mined rewards are lost even for the honest guy! The price of protection i guess.

the crypto space is still very new. it will get there. There are lots of talented people working on some great stuff. Once it is working as intended it will take an equally skilled team of UI coders and Human Interface designers to get it into peoples hands
lets walk before we run.

Hopefully, but this doesn’t mean that someone can’t argue against a given thing, in my case against POW in generally, today and now…


#5472

You seriously think these few solar panels with power exceed used my some mining enthusiast have an global impact?


#5473

first you say that you dont compare and then you post your conclusion. :grinning:

For me there is a huge difference to compare 2 or more things or to make a conclusion in generally, but that’s just me. No matter how often i will say i didn’t compare you will keep coming accusing me that i compare. Wasted time …

i point out that your numbers are accurate, but subjective, and do not reflect anything close to reality, if we talk about amount of money driven out.

True & agreed, it both cases it’s even higher if we take into account all affilated costs, be it shipping, custom and fees, cooling, PSU’s, other needed hardware like risers, cpu’s, RAMs, hdds’s, mainboards and whatever not… The hardware price mostly will be at least another 10% higher which makes it even worse in both cases…

I am pretty much convinced that it matters much more where money go, to community or to bitmain.

I totally fail to see how money for electricity paid to electricity companies and money for hardware to Nvidia/AMD/whomevers goes to the community. Your sentence is a pretty good POS argument by the way…


#5474

i already spotted back in the may that you choose not to see difference between asic mining community under bitmain and GPU mining community around the world.


#5475

sorry in advance, but…it’s you guys. you are the problem who bought hundreds of asics, basically pumped Bitmain with money. now wondering what will happen? it’s new BitcoinCashABCD pump. Smoke from the chimney every day. It is your money burning. You gave this opportunity to bitmain.


#5476

Hi,

The way you have written this post, you are either attacking boxalex, or just blatantly making things up because you want them to be true. This is not how people have discussions. We all realise the issues at hand, but you go for it keep screeching. (if I have made a mistake and the meaning got lost in translation I am sorry)

Im not a mod. I have no power.

they made their money from btc bcash and getting product out of the door.

no, bitcoin and zcash did

I am not sure of what you are trying to accomplish. You just come off as really hostile, bitter and rude. we are all in the same boat. we know this. Stop blaming others for your financial decisions.

are you really trying to say “I told you so”?

anyway we are nearly 5550 odd posts in I doubt anyone is reading this. I have no ill will towards you nec. I just cant see what you are trying to say?


#5477

welcome to 2013…


#5478

look… you can joke around as you want.
you can keep telling me what real discussion looks like…

but there is nothing you can say, that will make me forget that ZEC was created as an answer to what Asic does with crypto.

Nothing you can say that will erase those 1.5 years of happy GPU mining, while bitmain created asics for other coins destroying them.

And now all you gotta understand is that zooko after number of video chats with bitmain ceo suddenly decides not only giving asics a chance, but give one year protection at least.

Not zooko or anyone from team cared for dedicated GPU miners. Who invested directly in zcash project their money, time, life. Devs handle it like nothing happened. Even you repeatedly asking to bury this thread, nevermind from your words you do not have nor GPU nor ASICS (Wtf r u doing in this thread, than?).

you and everyone else need to understand what really dev’s care about.

and this little trick in may is best for understanding.

when someone asks to reconsider this clearly wrong move, people like boxalex (with asics running) jump in, write tons of text, trying to convince everyone that there is no point, POW is bad… yeah it’s bad, but your asics keep spinning, right? you keep paying utility bills, nevermind you have 500 posts in this thread… no, don’t shut down your asics, just keep saying that POW is badly design…


#5479

ZEC thrown out lot’s of dedicated people, who mined zcash.

Most of them lost their trust and never coming back.

You all guys handle like it did not happen.

Thinking about future and all, ignorant to reality, in which dev team does not care about huuuge part of it’s community.

Offering one year protection to Bitmain investors, spit right in the face of those who believed you and bought gpu’s especially for zcash mining. Not for any coin mining, but zcash mining.

Don’t you feel like they would be happy if you announced ASIC at least one year in advance?

Don’t you feel like GPU miners deserve protection as well?

No, zooko does not feel this way. Fkn Liar. There is nothing else to it.


#5480

i will remember zooko as a general in crypto war, who responsible for the shortest war in history of crypto!

it was like:

  • Hey! Zooko, asics from Bitmain are coming!!!
  • There is nothing we can do! Dev decision - ZEC lays under bitmain, and we’ll give them one year of protection!

Nice asic resistance, bro…


#5481

Seems you missed my post that i shut down ALL my Asics with the next electricity bill (about in latest 2 weeks!). I will let you know when done these days. As said, it doesn’t make sense to mine with POW anymore and pay for electricity x times more than the reward.


#5482

i know i know

you will shut down your asics

in some time, not now

but do you understand that this has nothing to do with POS, its about mining becoming not profitable?

your actions tell me much more than tons of your words.

~100 asics
~$6000\month for electricity

and you try to be the voice of effectivity here?

maybe time you invested in writing posts here could have been more productively invested if you’d search for cheap electricity deal? do some research about places in the western world with rates as low as .07c (Some parts of USA, Canada and sooo on)?

Because it’s is crazy amount of FIAT money you drag out each month.

And crazy amount of your money been sent to Bitmain, which uses it now to pump something, which results in what we see today.

Don’t you want to investigate this?

maybe compare it to guy who bought 20x1080ti’s in May?