Let’s talk about ASIC mining


#5664

Inflation is the same but ASIC miners mine for profit or chase ROI and 99.99% will dump coins immediately…i was GPU miner and did not sell coins until i saw that is ASIC love coin and i know many other who did the same.
Also Zcash is now totally centralised coin…4 biggest pools are now in China


#5665

Guess I am the 0.01% because I have every single coin I have mined with ASIC (todate) where I have sold 99.99% of every single coin I mined with GPU


#5666

ohhh man, we start here again the same thing?


#5667

Think of this thread as a linguistic fractal meditating on the tragic beauty of human nature


#5668

all asic miners here?
your high tone in this topic always makes me laugh :joy::joy: winners4life


#5669

I am so small ASIC miner you would not even feel it if I would punch you with my ASIC power. The only thing that I want is to become rich :joy:


#5670

ZEC team should remember their promise to keep ZEC as ASIC-friendly coin until ASIC miner ROI.


#5671

Zcash, should just say goodbye to all of us and take the money with them…imagine, you can


#5672

What is the current status of Zcash now moving to ASIC resistance??? the time lock thing is totally fraudulent, how long will @zooko maintain his intransigence, Zcash is dying…wake-up. Look at “ProgPow” which I recommend early 2018 (or something very similar) when all this was starting…look where the network is now, wake-up…before it is too late.

Also Ethereum now moving to “ProgPow” hopefully soon but I see the ASIC sharks are circling expect volume to go up tremendously coming months.


#5673

Article from June i somehow missed. Interesting part is the quote that shows the current problems and lose of decentralization and privacy:

PoW Weaknesses

Satoshi Nakamoto predicted that PoW’s competitive reward mechanism would lead to the arrival of application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs) to mining but didn’t consider that economies of scale would favour [geographical and political centralisation](http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/), resulting in a handful of wealthy investors collecting the majority of the 656250 BTC issued in 2017, worth north of 4B Euros today.

This loss of decentralisation compromises user’s operational security because solo-mining as a “one-way anonymous decentralised exchange” (V.Buterin) is out of reach for most of us, so we must buy our BTC from an established market maker such as an exchange or reseller on localbitcoin.com, leaving a permanent trace back to our real identities.


#5674

Just some neutral comments:

  • does it matter if it’s ProgPow or Equihash 150,5?
  • Just checked out the profitability for ETH and gpu’s in generally on whattomine. There are by now 3 coins profitable right now at an average electricity cost of 13 cents, being ETH the 3rd of them with just 1 cent profit and 59 cents for electricity. That’s just some days bevor the constantinople upgrade.

#5675

It matters a great deal that is why the media and unknown ethereum developer campaign push back as begun, but it appears the consensus of ethereum developers get it. Once the PoW is changed expect it to be wildly more successful then monero PoW tweaks made by the Monero team which don’t understand hardware unlike the “ifdefelse” team; network hash rate wiil cut more than half as a ratio but will be more widely dispersed among individual miners which will now earn roughly twice the ether or more for same hardware and you can have natural healthy growth of network hash rate like 5-6% per year and not the exponential growth ASIC bring.


#5676

Oh yeah, in wonderland.

Keeping it optimistic: I’d say at least 5% per month.


#5677

@johnwisdom is correct.

If it’s profitable to mine then you will have thousands of people making large bets on hardware under the assumption that profitability will continue. In a bull market situation the difficulty will increase independent of the hardware used to mine. There is only one caveat to this: hardware availability. The only way the difficulty halts is if ASICs sell out or the price of obtaining GPUs climbs to make the situation unprofitable.

After profitability stops, miners will be stuck with hardware that has a depreciating value (more drastic change for ASICs, ASICs are a larger bet). They usually end up selling it or holding or mining at a loss, weathering the storm until the bear market cycle stops.

One problem with ASICs is that they are priced to be profitable at N months regardless of how much the chip costs them. This is probably my largest anti-ASIC gripe.


#5678

#5679

We don’t have proof, no secret company documents, but we recognise the risk. We recognise the risk because we competed against Bitmain for years and know exactly how they won.

sums it up really


#5680

Somewhere in this post many months back i posted an article about Nvidia having a deal with a big mining farm having produced gpu’s especially for them at unknown better prices. This article is literally the same what i than back posted.

Just evidience that backs up my theory and believe that POW mining nowadays is leading to more and more centralization daily forcing out private miners slowly but surely…


#5681

Zooko dislike gpu mining so much,but why he chose ZCASH as ASIC-resistant coin in the first place?


#5682

Interesting read, quoting the most interesting parts:

Ethereum’s hardfork scheduled for later this month will likely have some irreversible ramifications. Ethereum mining will never be the same again — and its not because of the fallen profit margins, nor is it because of some silly dispute to create Ethereum Cash. This is a planned event supported by almost the entire Ethereum community — minus the miners. We all knew that mining Ethereum would soon come to an end; it’s in Ethereum’s roadmap to switch to a Proof of Stake consensus. And although Ethereum will still be mineable until that fateful day in which PoS comes, some decisions made for this hardfork will have dire consequences for Ethereum miners.

==> exactly my thoughts.

2018 was a brutal year for cryptocurrency … hundreds of mining facilities have shut down either temporarily or permanently, and tens of thousands have stopped mining at home. …

==> again, just something obvious that leads to geographical centralization.

Current State of Ethereum Mining

Depending on where you live and the cost of electricity you pay, Ethereum is still profitable to mine. However, for the vast majority (i.e. people in California paying $0.13-$0.16 per kWH), it is either unprofitable or not worth the trouble to simply break even… All this is about to change.

==> Again, just logical that miners with lowest electricity cost prices get these miner market shares for free…

As I have previously said, block rewards reduction is nothing out of the ordinary and can be beneficial economically. But this reduction, in my opinion, couldn’t happen at a worse time.

==> totally agree with the author. This reduction at lowest crypto prices will have a huge impact allready…

This reduction will not have the same effects as the late 2017 reduction. Mining Ethereum was very profitable, and the value of Ethereum was skyrocketing. Miners were still happy, and investors were happy. However, at a time when there are so many miners on the fence whether to mine or not, a 33% reduction in rewards will absolutely positively sway them away from Ethereum mining. Miners that are breaking even will suddenly be at a sharp loss, again moving them away from Ethereum.
But wait, doesn’t that mean mining difficulties will re-adjust when miners leave the network? Yes, but there’s a new threat in town.

…To reiterate: as small to mid-sized GPU miners leave the network, there will soon be warehouses lined up with ASIC machines mining Ethereum.

==> absolutly agree, the next generation ETH Asics are mostly allready mining there…

As a result of smaller miners leaving the network while larger “Wal-Mart” type players enter, the end result will be more centralization…

==> Just logical, taking place in low electricity regions…

…In the end the decision was made that ProgPOW will be implemented in the future as long as there is nothing critical found in the largely untested algorithm…

==> just eye washing and keeping the gpu miner community “silent” in my opinion. Doesn’t make sense anyway to fork to another algo for a very limited time until POS.

Truth is, no one really knows for certain what the mid to long term consequences are. But the short-term consequences are, in my opinion, quite obvious. The departure of thousands of miners from Ethereum will have ripple effects throughout the entire mining industry. When they switch to different coins to mine, the difficulty rates will drastically increase for other GPU mineable coins. To put into perspective, Monero, the next highest GPU-mineable coin in market cap, has a daily reward of approximately $120K. Ethereum’s daily rewards will be reduced by $1.5mil . Simple economics tell us that this will displace a lot of GPU miners, further consolidating the power of ASIC miners.

==> This is indeed simple. I make this prediction for several months now what impact the constantinople upgrade will have, leave alone the casper upgrade at some time which will just finish gpu POW mining for everybody that is above 4-5 cents per kw/h…

The implementation of ProgPOW may ultimately be a moot point if it takes too long. The 3–4 month timetable of its implementation is optimistic at best. The network would also be taking a step back, as ProgPOW’s confirmation times take 1.5 to 2 times longer than Ethash. Instead, there should be an immense pressure to implement PoS as soon as possible before the new ASIC miners begin to accumulate a disproportionate amount of Ethereum, rendering PoS more centralized than desired from the get-go.

==> Actually i’am betting that ETH will take this approach, it’s the only logical one to force POS casper instead of wasting time/money/work hours for a very limited temporary algo. Just doesn’t make sense at such scale like ETH. I’am pretty sure they are forcing now casper even harder and at best only have an “emergency plan” for ProgPow in case there is a network threat on ethash. Anyone taking bets that there won’t be a ProgPow for ETH?


#5683

this is crypto. not constantinopole, blossom or any upgrade will drive miners out of network, but another btc dive to 2000usd.

How come you, zooko, scared of some large farms getting advantage via better prices for GPU’s?

Do you understand what is happening right now with your coin?

  1. Do you understand that asics are never sold cheap? Price always adjusted to make maximum profit for Bitmain at given moment.

  2. You scared about some large GPU farms getting some advantage… But do you understand that by not forking away, by letting asics in, you let in huuuge farms, who have 300% advantage over community? Do you understand that this never happens with GPU?

  3. Do you understand that asic is useless device that can perform only in one algorythm gaps? It has no other real use, other than make profit for hardware producer at given moment.

  4. Can you understand that GPU’s in crypto does the same operations as asics, but it’s not made for crypto, producers have no intentions to mine for themselves, hardware is fairly distributed and avaliable worldwide.

im so tired of repeating this simple things…

im so tired that zooko drags some yellow articles and finds em interesting.

i am so tired that zooko does not want to admit that the absence of decision in may killed this project since.

ZCASH asics profitable right now. but they are not sold to general public, and judging by situation on the Chinese exchanges, large asic miners seem to sell all zcash right away. Destroying value of what we created every day. With zookos protection.