Let’s talk about ASIC mining


#5726

Actually no, they reversed laws that gave miners additonally advantages like cheap land prices, tax incentives and cheap electricity prices all over. These are just additionally advantages that are no longer in place by now. As stated in the article mining is now concentrated in 2 provinces, inner mongolia and shenzhen. I came to the same conclusion when making my worldwide electricity prices chart as electricity prices there are still at 2 cents and lower for some facilities.

Here an interesting article describing even the centralization within china. Give attention to the numbers!!!:

A group of Chinese cryptocurrency miners, who declined to be named for fear of government reprisal, said they have already shut down 20,000 rigs, or about 10 per cent of the total number of machines they operate at an average power cost of 0.4 yuan per kWh.
Their struggles, however, represent an opportunity to others. Jack Liao, who runs Shenzhen-based bitcoin mining firm Lightning Asic, said he bought about 50,000 pre-owned bitcoin mining rigs that were put up for sale in the market over the past few days. About 70 per cent of the machines he bought were the Antminer S9 model, which cost him around 500 yuan per unit. A new Antminer S9 goes for up to 3,000 yuan.

  • The miners that have shut down 10% of their mining operations paid 0.4 XUAN for electricity, that’s 6 cents. Not many regions have access to 6 cent electricity and have in mind that was not enough to stay competive either.
  • These guys shut down 10% (20.000) units, means they control 200,000 units all over. That’s huge.
  • As i showed in my amateurish research about electricity prices there is mining concentration in some chinese regions in China with </= 2 cents per kw/h. This article just backs it up as the other guy there is buying the asics and putting them online. This article even shows how there is mining centralization within China itself.
  • Have in mind that all chinese miners have the advantage of not paying custom taxes, high shipping, whatever. This alone gives them an advantage of at very least 10-20%, mostly more on the hardware price itself.
  • Now have in mind that if a chinese miner at 6 cents has to lower his mining operation, what’s left for us with 10 cents or above?
  • There is no chance Washington, whatever can stay competive with 2 cents for electricity, leave alone tax rates, hardware prices, work hour costs, shipping costs, custom fees, whatever.

Further, the most recent research done by the Princeton University & Florida International University, Miami from October 2018 (link at the end) comes to the conclusion that 74% of BTC mining/pools are located in China. Just logical to conclude that other currencies are more or less at the same level or will be at the same level.
Again, it’s all about electricity prices where you can concentrate mining, enough these facilities get access to it, which is obviously the case.

Even IF the hashpower the hashpower isn’t located in china, the chinese mining pools are anyway.

About the ones in Washington and other parts of the world, sure, here and there might be some bigger facility, but 2 of the top ~top 20 facilities outside china allready went bankrupt, again, shifting more hashpower to china. The same would happen to gpu mining as well, just a bit slower, no doubt there either.

Most interesting parts of the research report:

Regulatory authority: The Chinese government enjoys broad regulatory
authority that it can bring to bear on domestic Bitcoin users, exchanges, and
> miners. Regulators have issued policy decrees to directly influence the exchange
> and mining sectors and also targeted Bitcoin indirectly through externalities
> like energy prices (see Appendix 1 for details).

Well-connectedness within the Bitcoin network: Which blocks reach
consensus in Bitcoin depends in part on how quickly they propagate through
the network from their source miner to other peers. Blocks found in China are
> already proximate to a majority share of hash power, so they can reach
> consensus more quickly than blocks found elsewhere. If the Chinese
> government assumed control of domestic hash power, this property would grant
> them an advantage in selecting blocks for the ledger, which is important for
some types of attacks (see §5).

Most interesting in this paper are the attack scenarios and how chinese mining pools could attack BTC at any given point successfully. I admit i wasn’t aware that it’s that serious. This report is a must read for everybody interested in network security in my opinion. Just some interesting parts related to the hashpower and mining pool concentration:

With control of at least 51% of the hash rate, Chinese mining pools could
simply announce that they will not mine on chains containing transactions from
their list of censored addresses. This is called a (a) punitive forking attack.
With less than 51% of the hash power, Chinese miners could still attempt to fork
whenever they see a censored transaction, but some attempts may fail. However,
the forks that succeed orphan the blocks found by miners that include censored
transactions, reducing their profits, so some may be convinced to follow China’s
censorship rules. This is a (b) feather forking attack [32,36]. As both attacks
require announcing intent, we classify them as overt.
One way China could reduce the hash power required for forking-based censorship attacks is through an © eclipse attack [23]. By directing a large number
of peers to monopolize all incoming and outgoing connections to specific victim
nodes, this attack controls what those victim nodes see and do in the Bitcoin
network in order to prevent them from learning about the transactions China
wants to censor. This reduces the portion of the network that is counteracting
censorship attacks by trying to approve the transactions China is trying to censor, meaning that less hash power is required to succeed at censorship, especially
if the targeted victim nodes are miners with substantial hash power. This attack
can be performed covertly, as victimized peers are unlikely to realize that their
connections are being manipulated.
The final attack that China can employ for censorship is (d) Internet traffic
tampering using the GFW and control over domestic ISPs. China could either
block blacklisted transactions originating in China from propagating or prevent
blacklisted transactions originating outside of China from entering the country
and reaching Chinese miners. This attack is overt because it would be clear
to Bitco

Disrupt competing miners: In addition to targeting Bitcoin users, China can
attack other mining pools in order to consolidate their control over Bitcoin and
make other attacks easier. The (a) selfish mining strategy described above is
one way to achieve this goal; as miners losing profits join the more profitable
Chinese-controlled pools, they also enter China’s zone of control. [15] outlines a
number of more direct attacks on competing mining pools, and in this section
we highlight two that China is capable of.
In both attacks, China could direct their hash power to pose as mining participants in other pools and then undermine those pools. The simplest version is
a (b) block withholding attack, where Chinese miners submit partial proofs-ofwork (PPoWs) but do not submit full blocks when they find them [45]. This may
not arouse suspicion because the probabilistic nature of mining means that it is
reasonable that a given miner finds many PPoWs but no full blocks, but the mining pool will be missing out on block rewards. This may cause that pool’s miners
to abandon mining or switch to a more profitable (possibly Chinese-controlled)
pool.
The other possibility is that Chinese miners posing as contributors to a foreign pool could wait to submit a found block until a miner outside the pool
broadcasts one, creating a fork. In the paper describing this © fork after withholding attack, Kwon et al. [29] show that it is profitable for the attacker, thus
reducing other miners’ profits by the zero-sum nature of Bitcoin mining. Both
attacks have low hash power requirements to deploy, but their success rate improves substantially with increased hash power [45]. They can be covert over
short periods, but over time produce visible signatures, making them overt over
long periods. 8

The Looming Threat of China: An Analysis of Chinese Influence on Bitcoin


#5727

Here you go AGAIN stating things (again) that are 100% untrue… just like this post from 11/18

and apparently you missed this post from 09/18 that refutes the statement that ASIC’s destroyed Zcash price on the market. I have no problem updating those numbers:

I would also like to point out that Zcash is in the Mid to high $50.00 range (just as it was suggested the price would be) and (since) BTC is in the mid to high $3k range


#5728

dear friend asic miner, if you can not see that large miners selling zec, pushing zec to new depths, constantly, compared to other for example gpu-pow coins, you need your eyes checked.

i said since 1st day i joined here that all we gonna have is huge increase in inflation.

popular response was - no, the amount of mined coins stays the same. Well, kinda yes, but the difference between now and then, is that then 100% reward used to split between community and now, it’s good if community gets 20% of reward.

asic facilities in China, being in race, will cash out. Untill there is profit. They are not in for ideas of any kind, they’re in for the race: “who will spend more on buying new hardware”.

We all, as part of zcash community, would like to ZEC be as attractive for investors as possible… I want to ask - how come asics are so good for this project if after they came, projects value is constantly down? Even when other projects recover?

Maybe dev’s (dev) will reconsider something?


#5729

Didn’t took long …


#5730

Anybody familar witht he BTC dev channels? Are they working on POS for side chains?

[bitcoin-dev] Proof-of-Stake Bitcoin Sidechains
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-January/016611.html


#5731

Interesting article on 2019 attacks, explainations and more. Worth a read…


#5732

There is no " kinda yes" the amount of coins mined per day, regardless if mined by CPU / GPU / ASIC remains the same. It has remained the same since 10/28/16.
ANYONE who mines Zcash is apart of the community, you do not have to be on these forums to be the community.

Every single cryptocoin is down, “EVERY SINGLE ONE” ! There is not one coin that is even close to 50% recovery of their all time high price.

if these are simply your opinions, great… how about starting it off as that, because nothing you have posted is factual and if your goal is to simply flame and antagonize I will know to ignore all your posts


#5733

50% of recovery?

so here how it goes? you drag in random numbers just like that?

then i’d like to know more about that 50%… for example - compared to what? to price drop over which period? you leave quite a lot room for speculations, as soon as topic becomes uncomfortable ofcourse.

So we can’t agree that ZEC value was holding a lot better while it was GPU mined?
I mean you can’t see that since May '18 value goes constantly down, renewing historical low’s?

You sure should consider ignoring my posts, cause we are clearly living in different realities.


#5734

When Zcash was only GPU, it was the “Golden Age” of cryptocurrency. Examples of this are the dot com (1995 -2000) boom, it was the great Tulip mania (1637), it was the housing bubble of 2008. <<<— everything to the left of this is 100% fact

ASIC’s have absolutely nothing to do with Zcash’s current value. ASIC’s did not make Zcash’s price drop. At most all ASIC’s did for Zcash was create name calling, the yelling of broken promises, several thousand people that hate Zooko, and people banned from the forums! oh yeah and a lot of GPU’s on Ebay for sale.
In my opinion this is as a matter of fact as the Earth is round which is believed by 99.9%.

As for the 50%, this was just a number out of thin air… provide a number that you think is sufficient recovery enough and I will place that against Zcash and the top 10 coins from now and 01/20/2018 when most coins were at their peak “Golden Age”.

Here is one more fact Alex: If you can not see/understand/admit that ALL cryptocurrency is currently tied to BitCoin, and in the past, at this moment and for the foreseeable future all cryptocurrency will rise, fall, and/or fail based on BitCoins value; then I have no idea how to have a conversation/debate with you.


#5735
  • ASICs had little to no major price impact. The lows are a bear market cryptocurrency-wide phenomenon.
  • ASICs allowed more small miners without GPU knowledge to get involved. ASICs are available to everyone and take fewer technical skills than a GPU setup. Several non-technical users here mentioned being able to mine only after ASICs were introduced.
  • All mining outside of hobbyist mining is driven by ROI, it has nothing to do with enthusiasm aside from the enthusiasm about profiting.
  • The facts have shown ASIC resistance to be temporary over the short term and has thus far been shown to be impossible over the long term. At the same time, the high potential of a secret ASIC being developed for an algorithm that is considered “ASIC resistant” is a constant threat.

The continual pro-GPU, anti-ASIC story isn’t convincing.


#5736

I can’t buy an ASIC, which proves this false.

Which facts are these? I can tell you are not a technical person at all and have no degrees in computer science, computer engineering or electrical engineering. You just state things with dogmatic consistency which works on non-technical people, but is complete BS, it is unfortunate.

You guys have killed Zcash but don’t seem to grasp it yet, Paycoin 2.0, unless you just want to get paid…but remember what as happened to “Josh garza”, @zooko watch out founders reward is kinder fishy.


#5737

Please explain why you can not buy an ASIC?


#5738

Currently:

  • Innosilicon A9 ZMaster is sold out.
  • Innosilicon A9+ ZMaster which costs USD 5000 is only available for pre-order, with limited release.
  • Bitmain has removed all mention of Equihash miners from their online store.

#5739

If this is in response to Bentusi statement; I was leaving the chance open that where he lives has restrictions.

There are many a Z9 mini for sale on ebay from 250 to 450 and 550 with psu (some new).
One person is selling 10 brand new ones, at auction, current bid is 1400.00

regular Z9 for 1400 with psu (new)

Want to buy a few, I’ll sell you some of mine
Z9mini with PSU and free USPS 2 day shipping in USA for $600.00 (paypal for your protection and mine) – I hate to think that if someone really wants one, they can not get it.


#5740

I really hate nowadays to jump in and post whatever pro asic but that’s not fair as it includes only the producer directly without vendors, resesellers or whatever other buy options.

Have in mind that than back, exactly the shortage of GPU’s have drove me personally to expand asic mining than back as i was NOT able to get my hands on gpu’s for about 6 months, neither from producers, nor from vendors or resellers…

There are a lot of equihash asics on ebay.com, ebay.de, ebay.co.uk, and other country local ebays and for sure a lot of resellers/vendors:

A9+

A9

Z9

Z9 mini

However, in my opinion the whole hardware is problematic in POW when crypto goes big bullish. In such cases you neither can find asics nor gpu’s at reasonable prices if at all.
Someone should slowly but surely include FPGAs as well as they get more and more popular.


#5741

guys, show please new unit, with warranty, aimed at enthusiasts, for less than 5k.


#5742

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#5743

Just because YOU were able for whatever reason to get your hands on gpu’s doesn’t mean someone else in his country wasn’t able to get his hands on is a liar. I wasn’t able, simple and easy as that! Take it or leave it!

But i’am not ok being called a liar for sharing my own experience!


#5744

not a single gpu avaliable? in 6 month period?

seems very legit, fellow asic miner.


#5745

Yes, from Mid-End November 2017 to April 2018 i wasn’t able, that’s about 6 months in my books.
I was offered several deals (black market) at way overpriced prices in the range of 1.500$ prepaid to be shipped in some weeks than back which i refused being afraid to get ripped. Tried as well the biggest resellers in germany, again without any success than back.

I’am not defending asics, no way anymore. But people seem to forget fast different situations in the past, like the gpu shortage than back.
And just because YOU, as you admit, had some connections to get your hands on, just proofs me again how flawed and unfair the whole POW mining business is. Some have access to hardware others not, some get them cheap, others not. Some are favoured, others not.
Happily for most fans of crypto we see the POW mining business die slowly but surely.

I don’t mine anymore with asics, so just spare me the next time the “fellow asic” miner codicil.

Be advised that i won’t take anymore offendings for sure, Everything such as liar is going to be reported and flagged. I’am sick of the abusive violent offensive offending language and words used in this thread…