No that’s not Bitmain’s MO. They will sell them. If there is a Z10, they would sell Z10 when Z11 goes into “batch testing” AKA…load up the farm and let’s fire em up boys!! Rinse repeat, profit TWICE!!.
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The fork happened before I started mining ETH.
Some truth here, look at the ETH miner…was $800, then “no fork”, now $2150, plus APW3+ and shipping, so say $2500 now. It suddenly became 3X more expensive…wonder why that is?
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ETH not profitable for GPU now. But whole ETH GPU miners network have slow reaction and continue mine ETH.
I really like this idea. I didn’t like it until today, but then I was talking to someone who I won’t name in case they don’t want this attributed to them, but they said they thought if the Zcash community did switch the PoW, that there would be a legacy-PoW chainfork using the old PoW (Equihash-200,9). That really took me aback. My assumption was that whatever the community consensed on, everyone would go along with it [*].
But, then another person who I won’t name (but they should feel free to jump in and take credit if they see this) said “Well, if there is going to be a chain-fork anyway, why don’t we make both chains ourselves and beat them to it?”. And I said something like “Well, maybe if there are going to be multiple chains, then the Zcash Company could offer tech support for all the different chains! (If we could get funding to support each one.)”.
So, there are a lot of possibilities in the air. It’s interesting to compare the similarities and differences between:
a. There are two chains — Equihash-200,9, and New-PoW. They have separate coins with their own prices. [**]
b. There is one chain but it has a dual PoW: half of the mining reward goes to Equihash-200,9 miners, and half to New-PoW miners. There is still only one coin though.
[*] footnote 1: And in fact, I’m still kind of 50/50 on whether there would be a legacy-PoW chain fork at all, in response to a PoW-update, or if everyone would get behind the new thing. After all, there was a legacy-PoW chain-fork (or multiple ones ??) in Monero, but I can’t tell if they were sincere Monero community members who wanted to try a different thing, or if it is just like an astroturf campaign, or what. If it rapidly fades (and doesn’t make substantial money for anyone along the way), then that’ll presumably dampen any enthusiasm for an Equihash-200-9 chainfork of Zcash. If they survive and grow (like Bitcoin-Cash and Ethereum-Classic have), then that means something else entirely. I guess if the energy is coming from “now I have an ASIC miner for this algorithm, what coin shall I mine?”, then the current crop of Equihash-200,9 alternatives would provide a better outlet for that energy than the CryptoNight alternatives.
[**] footnote 2: Fortunately, Zcash Overwinter will activate before anything like this could happen, thus protecting users against replay mis-spends. Way to go, Zcash engineering team! 
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Thank you for commenting. I sincerely appreciate it.
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Digibyte runs on 5 algorithms each taking up 20% of the network.
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but what if, in a few months or years, a new ASIC is released for the New-Pow ?
Do we replay the same so-so game ?
If I had to make a choice I would opt in b) version. Two coins would sound like all the BTForks that have been performed for a few month… no added value. Two coins because of ASICS is a really bad reason.
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you compare bowling ball to grapes, btc and any other coin is very different stories, combining brand, features, community support and dev ideals and ability. z9 is 300w and 65 decibal, same sound as normal human conversation at 1 meter distance. sure I do not like bitmain, and well aware of previous malpractice like antbleed, as well as possible chinese goverment takeover or interference.
my point still valid and are facts indisputable
7x less hardware cost per hash
10x more hash per watts
cost similar to 2 high end (1080TI) GPU or 7 low end (1060s) which is arguabley not “out of reach” of the garage miner
and I mine for many years with GPU, still mining on this day with GPU. Of course there will be large majority of smaller miner, people with 1 gaming rig up to 12+ cards who will howl about competition of asic. Also they should know they have been competing for months against bitmain asic already without knowing because bitmain run the asic in secret for months prior to sell.
only minority of people who are in position to buy asic are chime in about “hey plez stick with algo because I invest on this device and algo only used by maybe 7 major coin, some wich already have said forking.”
in proof-of-work systems, there is a clear security advantage for ASIC mining, as rental attacks/pool hoppers/massive redirect of other GPU (research, university, AI GPU farms) attack are not possible and existing miners have more incentive to resist any attacks due to instant zero value of hardware investments if coin fork away because of any attack.
gpu miner have no loyalty (aside from miniscules percent who are hardcore believer of coin or team). GPU hop from coin to coin based on WTM calc on near daily basis.
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in the end
dev goal is and always should be
1.widespread adoption
2. increase in per coin value
3. security of network via highest hashrate
decentrailzation is a myth, bitmain will continue to make new asic for any fork change that is produced, and continue to run massive hashrates on them in shadow pools, its only between the ears of GPU user that decentraization exists as an arguement
I will not be suprise if one day they only send notice of new mashine release to previous purchasers in order to keep the buzz down and keep coins from forking.
because of security of coin via massive hashpower, instant loss of value on asic mashine if 51% attack occurs, ASIC is clearly the only future for POW coin, not to mention that AMD and Nvidia are also controllable entities for chinese govt, can introduce flaws in cards that render them useless to mining, purchased by the thousands by farm owners already.
you are only fooling yourself
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And here’s another random idea.
A little more than a year ago, I wrote a blog post (inspired by conversations with the Zcash Company CTO, Nathan Wilcox) titled A Future Friendly Fork. It basically says, when the time comes (as it inevitably will) that the Zcash blockchain forks into two blockchains, let’s not split the community into two communities! We can keep one community, and the people in that community use both of the new blockchains.
Now, this might happen due to the Great ASIC Crisis of 2018. (Or it might not—see my previous post on this thread about whether or not that will happen.)
Something else that I’ve long imagined is that we could have a “Stability Branch of the Blockchain” and an “Innovation Branch of the Blockchain”. The difference between the two is (a) new features get added faster to the innovation branch, and (b) old features get removed from the innovation branch. In contrast, the stability branch has stronger backwards-compatibility — old features get preserved and new software releases continue to honor the old feature.
In particular, at some point I would like to see someone create a variant of Zcash that refuses to honor money from old t-addresses. In that variant, there is presumably some window of opportunity during which you can upgrade your money from a t-address to a z-address, but after that window of opportunity ends, then everyone who uses that variant of Zcash is in agreement with each other that they just don’t honor the old money. That money is no longer valid to them.
Anyway, if this crisis results in two Zcash blockchains (which I honestly think it won’t), then that could be good because we can do more ambitious experimental upgrades to one blockchain while relying on the other for more stability.
P.S. I still believe a chain fork will happen eventually. Because I believe Zcash will get better and better, and more and more widely used and more and more important to people, and things which grow that much inevitably spin off descendants and variants. But I don’t necessarily expect it to happen due to this crisis, in 2018.
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Blockquote
in proof-of-work systems, there is a clear security advantage for ASIC mining, as rental attacks/pool hoppers/massive redirect of other GPU (research, university, AI GPU farms) attack are not possible and existing miners have more incentive to resist any attacks due to instant zero value of hardware investments if coin fork away because of any attack.
Blockquote
Have you never heard of Nicehash or other cloud mining services? Do you honestly think they wouldn’t buy a metric ton of these and still rent them out?? I can rent Bitcoin hash power right now if I so desired. This is supposed to be a community coin…IE anybody can walk into an electronics store and buy a GPU. Not so with an ASIC, you have to order from China…if you can get lucky enough to score a few before all the bulk orders from the major mines with direct orders swallow them all up. They can literally disappear in hours.
I prefer an landscape where anyone with the commitment to go buy one or more GPUs from the local store, or via Amazon, Newegg, whatever can do so. That person can put together their own setup as small or as big as they want to and learn something along the way. ASICs are useful for a short period, then they are obsolete by the next version. They teach you nothing, except how to click a few buttons and fill in a couple fields. GPUs can be re-purposed into other projects, or go figure…as actual Computer GPU’s. They won’t end up in a scrap pile in 9 months.
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How many times do you think you have to flush Bitmain’s investment into Taping out a new ASIC before they stop trying? It’s not trivial, and it’s not exactly cheap. Not to mention if they end up with a couple runs of 1,000 or more that can’t sell because they are paper weights before they can sell them…yeah that stings. They want to make money, a lot of it. They won’t waste their time with a coin that continually makes them lose money.
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I like where you are going with the 2 chain idea both equally supported by the mother-ship (no bastard redheaded stepchild) and each having its own purpose. it does have the potential to cause confusion in the face of newcomers. Branding the coins would be key.
Regarding the idea of running on 2 algorithms. Like I said in a post above, Digibyte runs on 5. This prevents any type of device attacking the majority of the network. Intensive calcs can tend to the ASIC side if that proves to help the Z transactions but both sides have equal control preventing focused attacks. This is also a net positive idea.
I also like one of your idea from far above of a miner reward delay that could not be spent in for a set time. Further supporting the network also helping against attacks.
This a time to make things better in the face of adversity. Its not the time to be passive about decisions, all these are ideas outlined here are steps forward as creative appropriates to challenging problems. ZCash is literally also in a fork in the road of its development. Make it a positive step.
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@bitcartel, hard to keep track on this thread, which timeline are referring to?
I can say nothing has changed with the election/ballot timing, we are still planning on final ballots being assembled by end of May and elections commencing in June, with results to be discussed at Zcon0.
But we recognize the need to send a clear message from the Foundation side and will be publishing a statement sooner (hopefully early next week)…parallel to the election process.
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THIS. Most encouraging post seen thus far. A statement hopefully will be made sometime next week. That’s something regardless of what it is, it’s a time line to something close to a potential answer.
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you know there is a ETH ASIC miner due out this month and a second batch next month
In fact, the gains made by GPU miners from equihash have been abnormal since February. Greedy GPU miners left zec early and turned to other currencies, such as RVN. (for nvdia gpu, RVN’s revenue has been more than 20 percent higher than zec’s in the last three months). Among the remaining gpu miners, there are many loyal supporters of zcash. Such as me. I distribute my three miners in three different IP addresses. I am full of confidence in zcash and I am very interested in the future you describe. I support and promote zcaash as much as I can. I believe people like me have a lot here.
If I’m just greedy, I can go to RVN and And convert it into dollars.
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Folks, just a general comment about me: I don’t respond to conspiracy theories, and I don’t answer interrogation questions. The Zcash Company has always operated with exceptional transparency and integrity, and I’m very proud of our track record. The only way to earn a reputation for integrity is to practice it consistently for many years straight. We’ve never hidden anything substantive from the public, and we’ve never done anything that we’ll be ashamed of when it gets written in the history books.
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That’s right, and thats why you need to fork off the ASICs… because you allowed your representatives to say that you would do it no questions asked during the last 1.5 years… (more so around the launch of ZCash)…
about giving support for 2 chains,… that’s a bit greedy IMHO… concentrate on the chain you should, which is the one you promised us all, which is the NO ASIC chain.
If you do not support development of the ASIC chain it will DIE… just like the Monero offshoots are dead in the water without developer support…
And I dont see how supporting a chain for the benefit of really only bitmain is beneficial to the greater cryptocurrency economy… you would be lining their pockets only (ok and your own, which is not really very ethical to do it only for money… you were not supposed to be doing this for money but for the greater good of humanity with your anonymous transactions)… and do you really want to do that? you should not want to support their attempted take over of all POW cryptocurrencies.
You had built trust in us all, we all trusted you to do the best for the world… and now you seem to want to do the best for your wallet… not very cool. You should be supporting those who have supported you for the last 1.5 years and push anything else aside… at all costs.
IF you turn out to only be in this for the money (supporting development on 2 chains), that would put in question the ceremony and your ability to create ZEC out of thin air… If you are only in this for the money, people will question if you can create ZEC out of thin air, cause heh… money tree’s are good for those who are greedy. why not just print more… no one would know the difference…
That is why you need to stay on the original path and keep the trust going that you have developed… ZEC depends on trust and that trust can not sway even 1 nano-meter.
You need to remember that Zcash co. developed 2 things… 1. a blockchain, and 2. trust. without 2. trust… 1.blockchain is worthless.
As miners, we have openly been happy to give the development team their founders reward… I think that we should decide how that reward is spent in the future… if supporting the original idea of No-ASICs or supporting both chains… ZCash co. has profited a lot from our support and I think a little more respect should be given back to those of us who have supported ZCash co. from day 0.
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