I never said anything about that manufacturer. I posted names off the top of my head and then found a website list.
That’s simply not true. Bitmain has competitors: Halong, Innosilicon, Ebang, Baikal, Canaan, and Pangolin to name a few. Manufacturers | ASIC Miner Value So, until the competition catches up, why can’t the ZcashCo protect us and support the network at the same time?
XMR.TO admin here.
Just to clarify that we are temporarily offline for technical reasons completely unrelated to this.
As any good PR person would say to calm fears.
Again, somebody already posted that XmR.to pool is offline,. not Monero itself. * Do you understand the difference between a pool and a “network”? Finally, I am not responding anymore to your remarks as it is wasting space here, but once again the companies you listed in that link are 1) Out of business 2) All in China with Bitmain knockoffs or 3) Only sell to other manufacturers or very very large buyers.
Please please please quite trying to be an expert on something you are not experienced with. Peace Out.
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my post has been edited. Thank you for pointing out my misunderstanding.
Regarding your math - I believe your MH/s/W on the S9 is off:
An Antminer S9, does roughly 13 TH/s at 1600W - That is 1.30E+07 MH/s. If you break that down to watts, that would 8125MH/s/W if my math is correct. GPU mining stopped long before the S9 came out. The efficiencies were much worse prior to the S9. I had a usb BTC mining stick" that did 333MH/s that was way faster than a GPU (in 2014)
You are correct about the 33 Sol/s for the Z9 and it being 8 to 13 times more efficient than GPU mining.
What we do know (and I have learned through this whole debate and other forums) is that algorithms proven and described as being much more ASIC resistant are LYRE2RE2, and X16S. This would be a safer bet than changing a few variables in equihash. I never trusted scientists…
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“Equihash is a memory-oriented Proof-of-Work, which means how much mining you can do is mostly determined by how much RAM you have. We think it is unlikely that anyone will be able to build cost-effective custom hardware (ASICs) for mining in the foreseeable future… we may change the Proof-of-Work again, if we find some flaw in Equihash or if we find another Proof-of-Work algorithm which offers higher assurance.”
Can we still believe this original intention???
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You are going too far, I am from Egypt and I can tell you ASICs are already forbidden here and in most of the middle east and africa. It will be matter of time until it will be minority of countries who allow it to be imported.
It is impossible to purchase Z9 in China
Cannot sell Z9 in China
By forking to anticipate or otherwise alter market behavior is literally the definition of a centrally-controlled instrument. The whole point of a free-market is that it is open to technology and infrastructure development and should ideally not be regulated in order to incentivize true competitive growth and economies of scale. If the Equihash algorithm is now so commonly mined and popular that is has attracted more efficient mining technologies to emerge, that is ultimately a good sign for the network overall, even if it does hurt those participants that now find themselves using obsolete technology. Participants who find themselves at a disadvantage can either decide to leave the market or make the needed infrastructure and technology investments to continue to participate, and ultimately do so more efficiently and therefore more profitably.
Central planning ultimately leads us away from a true free-market, which can be a savage and unforgiving arena to find yourself in if you are not at the fore-front of the competition. There should be absolutely no delay in the Sapling and Overwinter network infrastructure upgrades, and even less so if it were to be caused by the ASIC hysteria. The Zcash team should focus on the objectives they have planned out for the currency and let market forces sort themselves out. GPU miners have the ability ultimately to switch to other coins instead of zcash if they worried about their profitability. In fact, I support Zcash but I am not a miner of Zcash. I have a full node running (how many miners also have full nodes I wonder…) on my laptop while my rigs mine Ethereum. I then exchange it for Zcash and get about 50% more payout than I would mining Zcash directly. It is more profitable to do this than to mine zec directly with Nvidia or AMD right now so IMO the uproar is all money and profit based and not indicative of someone who supports the actual coin versus looking to make money mining. I don’t see why the team would pander to those that are only interested in their mining profits than the future of the network.
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Lets be franc. Most Asic advocates see only dollar sign in their eye.
Spend 2k usd , run the machine and sell your harvested coins asap to recoupe the investment before the difficulty go up and the price go down . Way better tha s9
Thats simple honest fact . They couldnt care less of what they mine .
We will end up having higher difficulty and price pressure due to constant selling .
And they will hope they will profit from the next 2 to 4 months of mining at lower income to get the 2k they spent one more time before dumping the asic to the new asic z9 not mini. And it starts over again and so on.
In their mind it will net them 100% profit in 6 months maybe more or less .
I know it , you know it . And my stupid cat knows it .
It will be another coin addicted to asic .
Bitmain is like a drug dealer and the asics are the heroen of the business.
Asic supporters should refrain from putting all those stupid execuses they call “arguments” specially the one about gpu miners trying to protect their investments.
Only gpu miners and specifically the micro ones who really cared for the zcash and the cryptocureencies ideology in the first place .
And to be more franc, me as a micro miner if zcash going to adobt the asic addiction path . I will get an asic because i like the coin . But i will view it as a corrupted disfunctional corporate as everything in this world is . I will feel pitty but i will be pragmatic and deal with it.
I will not lose hope though of finding another currency that will have the science and ethics combined.
Just please make your mind quickly and end this sharade.
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That fact alone, besides all the negative aspects of Asics, should be a reason strong enough to fork away from Asics.
One of the main use case of Privacy currency is the possibility to exchange it in areas of the world where the government is corrupt and the economical system is broken. And in those countries, the policies in place will always have an incentive to banish Asics (it’s very easy, since it’s not a commodity). That’s why commoditization of mining (fpgas, gpus,etc.) should be a general principle for privacy coins.
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Efficiency does not equal profitability. It has been stated many times here, and there is no logic to that statement.
Do you know there would be a delay? Team members have said this affects the POW portion of the daemon and mining software only. There should be dedicated team members for these tasks already which wouldn’t take away from other dev’s working on other portions of the code (sapling, overwinter). Other coins have done POW changes in a minimal time frame.
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@zooko
BTC About 78% of the world’s computing power is in mainland China, but fortunately they are scattered in different pools and are controlled by different people.
Although all PoW-based encrypted digital currencies are at risk of being attacked by 51%, due to the dispersion of computing power, few people can really launch attacks.
But if the miners themselves do not want to launch attacks, but mining machine manufacturers launch attacks?
Still using the metaphor of the past, that is, although each miner would like to be subjectively independent in checking his calculations, the calculators in his hands have been given a consistent and wrong answer. This may pose a great threat to digital cryptocurrencies.
On the other hand, BITMAIN, a manufacturer that has the absolute right to talk about mining machines, once again had such problems.
In April 2017, the BITMAIN miner exploded with an Antbleed back door. Although this is described as a “loophole” in the Chinese language, Antbleed is more like a function designed to be implemented.
Anonymous personnel discovered that after an ant miner, produced on a bit continental network, was connected to the network, it would periodically communicate with a domain name held by Bitland, and pass back the serial number, MAC address, and IP address of the miner to the server on BITMAIN. . If Bitland’s server gives a negative signal, the miner will stop operating.
Although Bit Continental responded that they could not close any mines that did not belong to them. However, the Bitcoin Core team proved in the experiment that there is no verification of this feature, and anyone can turn off the miner by forging DNS - but it also means that BITMAIN is capable of shutting down any already sold miner.
Afterwards, BITMAIN repaired this “vulnerability”, but it caused intense discussion in the community. This also lays the foundation for almost all PoW blockchain communities to have a prejudice against the bit-continent.
A few months later, under the leadership of BITMAIN, ViaBTC dug up the first block and hard-branched the Bitcoin blockchain. Since then, Bitcoin Cash has been available in the world.
Does mining machine monopoly destroy distributed systems?
Faced with this problem, we should now have a clear answer. That is, the miner’s monopoly will definitely affect the safe operation of the PoW digital cryptocurrency.
The question is not whether BITMAIN and the founder, Wu Jihan, are worthy of trust. It is that one of the values of any blockchain system should be to operate safely without any confidence in the trust of any individual company or individual.
Even if the ASIC mining machine is not monopolized by BITMAIN, the ASIC mining machine itself will increase the concentration of calculations.
The ASIC used for mining has great requirements on ventilation, power, and space. It has no use other than mining, and it has been difficult to calculate because of its powerful computing power.
This has caused external players to hardly start mining on or off the computer as they did five years ago. The recent blackouts caused by centralised exchanges have also proved that concentration in this unregulated market will definitely lead to insecurity.
Assuming the bitcoin network operates on one million miners, no one can close it. If the Bitcoin network is running on 20 large mines, it is much easier to close it.
By the end of 2017, 78% of the calculations have been concentrated in mainland China, which has led to the possibility that Chinese regulators have actually launched a fatal attack on Bitcoin.
Also, most of the digital cryptocurrency usage scenarios are related to “decentralization.” Once centralized, it means that these usage scenarios no longer exist. Causes an originally valuable project to become a pure wasted air coin.
Yeah personally I wouldn’t move to XMR too with all GPU’s … maybe not a single GPU… so they loosing not because of the anti ASIC fork but because of “non-believers” in their coin. Also there are more valuable “new-comer” coins with new Asic-resistant algos and good profitability. So this hurts them now a little bit.
All in all:
Privacy coins will soon get obsolete also in EU. If every serious “company” who has to comply to EU-rules is forced within the next 18month to report user data and transactions which applies to Wallets too… so they may also decide to prohibit to use a Wallet which doesn’t store the information as required for end-users. Similar to “streaming videos” which were a grey area before but now clearly is illegal in the EU.
So what… zCash will become a coin for criminals only… Same for Monero… They loose their argument. 18 month is the timeframe for European countries to comply to the new EU regulations. Some will be faster some will be slower.
To stay on topic:
Which argument will speak for zCash if not “being ASIC resistant”… The main reason will become its biggest problem soon.
I think you should just start from beginning and make a simple desicion about:
"Generally will you allow ASICs to mine zcash or not?"
- If you choose YES, then do don’t need to do anything.
- If you choose NO, then you and community will find a proper solution how to prevent it. Since zCash was always considerated as ASIC-resistant this will only support zCash global position and make additional push like for Monero.
But first of all - it’s important and necessary to give a community asap a message about this decision. People are waiting for your decision and not for comparation btw GPU and ASICs.
So it took only about 3.3X MH/s/W to drive GPUs out of the business of SHA256d mining altogether. Is that right?
Check your math, please. Antminer S9 is 13 TH/s using 1300W or 10000Mh/s/watt or 3300X of your GPU number.
Th/s is 10^6 Mh/s, not 10^3 Mh/s.
Therefore, your assumption is off by a factor of, say, 1000 (10^3)
In other words, a single S9 is working (in BTC ) as a 3300 GPUs.
Since Z9 is only 10-12 times more efficient in Zcash than GPU, you second assumption is not correct either.
You did slow down the ASIC advantage from 3300X to a “meager” 10-12X (so far). IMHO, it is high time to make it 1X.
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This is so much false information in one post and you are developer off Zcash??
BTC ASIC is 100000 times faster then GPY …not 3 times
Bitmain took 2-3 year to make ASIC for eqihash so forking like every 6 months would put them off for shure…it would be to big risk for them becuse they always mine 5-6 months with their ASIC before sell to public …there is no way that in 6 months windows they can make,mine ,sell…also how is equihash memory oriented when on my 8 gb gpy equihash takes only 600-700 mb
Dont forget that ASIC is not cheap to make…that is why Bitmain dont have any competition…even in 160 billion $ market like Bitcoin is …Bitmain released they S9 2 YEARS AGO is still no other have better …so Bitmain dont have any reason to sell better ASIC…they mine with better ASICs and for public sell 2 year old hardware
I think that if you can’t fight Asics you can redesigning the algorithm Asic friendly, but also developing the project for the hardware.
Hardware that you could sell like Apple do or release as open source so the sale price it will be lower and not monopolized from a single company.
But for now if you do nothing z9 can control your success, dumping and pumping some other coin.