They can not compete with big ASIC manufacturers if they want to design an open source product.
I think ZcashCo can negotiate with bitmain (or any manufacturer) to design a special algorithm with hardware (not used in cryptocurrency), sell them before any change in blockchain, therefore we can be sure there is not any pre-mining, and hardware’s price is fairly controlled by Zcash developer team, also we can estimate hash rate to prevent other ASIC suspicion. both parts have power in case of any abjuration.
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No, they aren’t. Not even remotely close.
And you are a zcash developer. Unbelievable… 
We will not allow that to happen.
ASIC-resistance is central to our mission. Bitcoin Gold, BTG, was conceived while watching the struggle between ASIC miners and the rest of the Bitcoin community. The fundamental reason for BTG’s creation was to help wrest back the crypto space from the relentlessly monopolizing tendencies of ASIC mining. How? By returning mining power to commodity hardware that is more universally accessible to people around the world: GPUs, or “graphics cards,” which nearly anyone can acquire and use.
This idea lives on in the original “code name’ for the project – BTCGPU – which is still the name of our GitHub code repository: BTCGPU.
We chose the PoW (“Proof of Work”) algorithm Equihash for the launch of BTG – an algorithm that Zcash first worked to develop and implement – because it was designed with the express intent of achieving a high degree of ASIC-resistance. The retail emergence of an Equihash-specific miner demonstrates that Equihash, as implemented today, is not as ASIC-resistant as necessary.
The Bitcoin Gold dev team is now working to fix this.
We’ve been planning to do this for some time – either by modifying how the Equihash algorithm is implemented, or by changing to an entirely different algorithm. Perhaps we’ll do each, over time.
The Monero team recently demonstrated that this works. When a Monero-mining ASIC was being released by Bitmain in March, the Monero developers changed their code to make those miners ineffective. We applaud their actions – and their success!
We’ll be releasing an upgrade to Bitcoin Gold in cooperation with the many partners in our ecosystem – including not just our own open-source projects, but also working with the developers of third-party wallets, mining pools, mining software, exchanges, various businesses relying on running full nodes… we’re even working with ASIC researchers who are assisting us in understanding the problems and how to best address them. Our solutions and code will be, as always, free and open-source to the crypto community at large. We’ll be releasing a more detailed plan in the coming weeks, providing plenty of advance notice so that none of our partners are taken by surprise.
The goal is to have no (or minimal) impact on the users and current GPU-based miners of BTG, apart from the need to upgrade certain software. We believe the BTG ecosystem will be ready to switch over to the upgraded version in approximately two months, and there is no expectation that this will result in an unintentional stray blockchain fork or alternate version of BTG.
We know this may not be a “one and done” solution. Our upgrade will make the current crop of miners useless for mining BTG, but this does not prevent them (or others) from trying again. Like the Monero team, the Bitcoin Gold Organization is committed to repeating this process as necessary. (The Monero approach is currently to plan a change of algorithm every six months. Our current plan is to make changes as the need appears.)
In time, anyone buying BTG-specific miners will learn that their investment is always lost, and the producers of this hardware will see that huge spending to develop custom hardware doesn’t lead to the profits they’re hoping to grab.
We’ll ensure that the ability to mine BTG is always available to anyone with access to a GPU – staying true to our mission, and keeping our promise to the BTG Community.
Carrying the torch forward, we are
The Bitcoin Gold Organization
When is the time Zcash will do something???
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Antminer Z9 mini Shipping: 20-30 June No shipping to HongKong!!!, Macau!!! and Taiwan!!!.________hongkong,macau,taiwan +_+ zcash no for you guys mining ok
welcome 1999 USD
When is the time Zcash will do something??
Why we need to vote for a result? Sometime voting doesn’t means FAIR…I don’t think voting is a good solution…look what happen to US election…Donald Trump get elected lol…What was the fundamental when Zcash been created? Is that fundamental been well managed? Why we need our community to voted what Zcash should and shouldn’t do??? I try to restore my faith to Zcash…but…I don’t get an answer from anyone yet which is very dissapointing.
agree, i still keep 100% coin mined since i started in hope that hodl will give chance coin to breath and reach its max value
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Correct, Purchasing one of these devices can help understanding what it can do.
I believe keeping Equihash as is, is a mistake.
- It’s optimizable
- The backing theory behind it is based on space (of memory), not thermodynamic limit
- It’s complex
But if it can be good for being ASIC-resistant, I’m ok with it.
What i would love to see. Is a new proof of work. which is intended to work for ASIC. (I don’t care if it gets in zcash or not (as a research))
A = hash(block_header) # pre-calculated
B = pow_func(nonce | A) # guessed from asic, concat nonce with A
# probably same thing like bitcoin B < some_integer
Then there’s limit on pre-determining what A is. And calculating B needs least complexity.
Probably having only bit-wise operator can do the trick, with no need for rotation.
So it took only about 3.3X MH/s/W to drive GPUs out of the business of SHA256d mining altogether. Is that right?
No, your ant miner specs are way off. No the S9 did not kill off gpu mining, gpu mining died a long long time before. What pushed me and my RX5830 rigs out of the game was FPGA’s - I moved over and made my own fpga. BFL and Bitfury were the two main people at that time. There was an opensource one too though.
GPU mining didnt die over night though. mainly because BFL were so shit they couldnt get their act together and also used business practices similar to those that Bitmain is being accused of. At that time were still nervous about custom bitcoin mining hardware. so GPUs were not phased out overnight, as it would seem the Z9 threatens to do to zec.
After the FPGA’s came the first series of ASICs, the first was Avalon, then BFL, then Bitfury, then loads of people. However because it was much harder for people to get funding for bitcoin start ups and their speedy obsolsencence ASICs still were not that widely adopted. Bitmain came out of all this mess. Bitmain did not put GPU miners out of business in bitcoin. They put other ASIC miners out of business. There was a time though when GPU’s, FPGA’s and ASIC’s were all mining on the SHA256 chain.
Also it is worth mentioning the whole empty blocks fiasco that bitcoin is now stuck with and cannot move away from because it will invalidate all of Bitmains ASIC’s - and ONLY Bitmains ASICS, Bitfurys will still work fine, older non bitmain asics will work fine too.
Is the Bitmain Antminer S9 a good example of the kind of thing that drove GPU miners out of the SHA256d business?
No it isnt. It is a good example of the acutal thing that drove nearly all other ASIC’s out of the business. However they did this by using the empty blocks bug for free extra hashpower!! a bug that now cannot be fixed because it will invalidate most of the network hashing power.
The Z9 specs say that it does 10,000 Sol/s at 300 W. That’s about 33 Sol/s/W, right? And the best modern GPU miners appear to do about 4.1 Sol/s/W, according to Hashrate/power usage observations 1 and Best Sols to Watt Thread 1 . So the Z9 is probably about 8 times as efficient in Sols/s/W than the current GPUs? Is that right?
this is why it will break gpu mining in a month, maybe two where as sha256 didnt succumb so quickly. after that you cannot go back to gpu mining.
I find this stunning, if correct! I would have assumed that the Equihash ASICs were more efficient than the Equihash GPUs, but that Equihash’s memory-oriented architecture would have made the advantage of ASIC implementation of Equihash much less efficient compared to ASIC implementation of SHA256d, but it appears the opposite is true!
Well, that depends what is inside the box. but yes the implication is there. However you are not comapring like for like. You would have to match hashrates across both chains for that to be even slightly valid comparison. If you use coins generated per watt rather than hashes per watt then your calculations will be more accurate because it will account for the difficulty across both chains. but still it is a strech to draw that conclusion from that observation.
If we rush to deploy a new “ASIC-resistant” algorithm, it could, for all I know, be even more friendly to ASICs than our first attempt appeared to be.
I see where you are coming from, however, if you are still gpu mineable you can just fork again. In fact it might be worth following the suggestion that zec forks every year…
I think you misunderstand the ASIC issue. The resistance is in the sunk R&D cost, not the hash per watt ratio. The algo just makes the R&D harder, therefore providing asic resistance.
anyway, i hope this helps.
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The numbers stated here are mostly expressed as questions. Several other posts have shown the calculations are way off. Wouldn’t it better to have someone on the team who is more knowledgeable about mining come up with accurate numbers?
Also, shouldn’t you be weighing the pros and cons of making a change? It seems like several of ZCash’s official posts are focused on one side - the benefits of not making a change. If you’ve already made up your mind and would like to explain why then you should lay out the argument of the other side as well. I mean, otherwise how do you know you’re making the right call?
Well said. You are 100% spot on.
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If your Zcash Equihash POW is mathematically sound and implemented (no backdoors) you don’t need to know how the Bitmain ASIC works as your already have a mathematically basis for you POW, based on a sound mathematically reasoned proof.
I am therefore going to assume you are in cahoots with Bitmain to sell mining hardware due to a secret backdoor optimization in Zcash Equihash POW and these system have been mining since around July last year to control the market and all this differing is a delaying tactic as I have said in other post.
NOTE: Signs of a mountebank, differing in giving straight answers to simple questions. Stated in their mission statement ASIC resistant, now not so much.
Zooko… your putting out positive spin PR! I thought you didn’t care about bad PR!!!
Quite well written, with supportive links, very good read.
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Bitmain already outperformed nVidia in last year sales. nVidia is in business for over 20 years.
Once again you are way off. I am actually embarrassed for you. Perhaps you should consider not posting anymore… or have your secretary do it for you… so they can check your facts and especially your math.
Others have corrected you already so I will not waste my time.
You are my favorite poster to this thread. Makes this worth reading, please keep them coming.
I have no idea where you get your numbers from, but the D3 is still profitable, enough you do not pay 0.20USD for electricity. It’s the same like with many gpu’s, lower the power consumption on the D3 to 700W and you are perfectly done mining with profit.
So now, if someone with 0.20 USD/kw/h buys high electricity usage hardware than the guys futre calculation is just wrong. I pay 0.14 Euro/kw/h and i’am absolutly fine with the D3’s mining right now.
IF this wasn’t the case all the X11 coins would be without a working network by now …
I still wonder how everybody is soooo concerned about the asic ROI, you do not buy one, you do not own one, why do you care if they are profitable or not. Maybe it would make more sense if you make a calculation and see if the overprized GPU’s you eventually bought 2 months ago for some 1.200 Euro per 1080ti can make their ROI 
So only Asic Miners are greedy and and have a dollar sign in their eye? Come one, the profit factor applies to at least 90% of the miner, no matter, gpu, cpu, asic, you call it.
I have no idea how you mine and what you do, but every miner that drops a coin like zcash with a bright future isn’t too smart. There is no logical reason to drop a coin as soon you mined it, no matter with what you mine it.
This statement may apply for shitcoins, possible scam coins and so on. But no smart miner will dump coins with future.
I am not advocating this if it was possible (just to be clear). It would definitely be a first. Bitmain has “never” allowed any third party to be the distribution point of their products. They have always maintained a iron grip on it, control seems to be everything in their business model. You could definitely color me intensely surprised if they ever agreed to do anything of the sort though. It does raise the question though if the “others” out there would be amicable to an arrangement like that though. It would remove “one” of the issues we have with the currently situation, although they would still control “how many” and “when”.
Don’t believe the mountebank, I have completely loss faith in Zcash WARNING TO PEOPLE WHO DON’T HAVE MONEY TO LOSE AND HAVE EXPENSES CASH OUT YOUR ZCASH.
Sorry for capitals but it would be unethical of me to not warn you, no magic is going to happen when overwinter and sapling are released, the ASIC resistance should be the priority but as said…
And also…
never seen you post in the speculation thread! i’ll wager ZEC does well / XMR will suffer. people that’ve been dumping on our markets to pay for their extremely overpriced gear; will move to XMR. XMR will become a dumpfest for a year++… traders will figure this out!!