I think it Zcash should stay ASIC resistant. However, if doesn’t, it might make more sense to be multi algo and accept numerous algorithms, but with varying difficulties per algorithm. So say it’s decided to not attempt to bypass ASIC, why not do 20% Equihash, 15% SHA256, 15% Scrypt, 25% Lyra2REv2, 25% CryptoNightV7? If you throttled it well, you could help avoid attacks and could help keep it more decentralized. The above has 2 GPU/CPU Algos, and then soon to be 3 ASIC. By keeping GPU as 50%, you still would allow for the GPU miners to continue mining and securing the network, while the 3 ASICs would expand the reach. Might be a little crazy, and I’m not a huge fan of Verge, but a multi algo shift could make sense long run if there isnt a push for a pure ASIC resistant algo.
@WalterMagnum why you can’t see you are never come first person to get Z9
Of course he does, that was clear from beginning when i saw the topic and the first posts …
It’s clear from the style most of these guys post, even blackmail and threat that there is no other intention than mining and their profit.
Only a minority has valid arguments that are backuped with real concerns and fair balanced argumenting.
The rest just shoots blind around in the hope to generate enough FUD to influence the devs. against asics, going as far as offending, accusing, blackmailing, threatening and whatever not.
Even the long time ago fixed remote bug made it several times into the discussion, doesn’t matter it’s for months now no issue, important is to create as much FUD as possible.
Perfect example of a false equivalence fallacy.
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The ASICs in that picture have zero resale value if cryptocurrency crashes. The GPUs have a much higher resale value.
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The GPU rigs can be used at home because they are quiet and cool and don’t emit formaldehyde. The ASICs need to be used in a warehouse.
Both of these points make GPU mining more appealing to more people. The fact that GPU rigs can be used at home means that casual miners have a big efficiency advantage over farms because they don’t need to pay to store the miners.
Thank you for carrying that much about MY money and MY risks i take. Believe me, with my 48 years i have NO use of unasked investition advices. Exactly that point you mention is NONE of your concerns.
Following your logic i as well could tell you (will do only so as an example). Stop mining, resell your cards until they have some value and bevor they get mass dumbed at some time, as this point will come for sure too at some point. So if your card today has a value of 1000 USD, tomorrow or next day it could be even none saleable when millions of 2nd hand cards hit the market. Just as an example, no need to argue here. But that’s not what i’am doing because it’s up to your discretion why you bought a card, when you will sale it, how much value it has now and in future, how you use it, how many you have and and and. It’s none of my concerns at all and reverse my investement shouldn’t be any of your concerns, easy as that.
Here’s a good example of the kind of manipulation that centralized mining enables:
The Bitcoin mempool spam is coincidentally associated with either with pushes for bigger blocks (such as during the New York agreement) or pumps of Bitcoin Cash.
The most damaging result of this mempool spam is that users had to pay enormous fees to send Bitcoin. Often, the transaction costs would be greater than the amount sent.
Companies like Steam and Microsoft even stopped accepting Bitcoin because it came too expensive. Many people now think that Bitcoin has inherently high transaction costs because of this. The damage is permanent.
This kind of manipulation is possible only because of the centralized nature of Bitcoin mining. The miners have to pay a lot to spam the mempool like this. If mining were decentralized, their fees would end up going to another pool, and they’d lose money. However, because Bitcoin mining is controlled by only a few ASIC manufacturers, they were able to mine their own transaction fees and pay nothing. They actually profited substantially from the mempool spam because honest users had to pay more.
Zcash could easily face the same problems if they allow ASICs to take over. Bitmain also has a strong belief that miners own a cryptocurrency, not the users or the developers. They will undoubtedly try to control Zcash once they control most of the hashrate.
Your funny dude. So what are you going to do with your z9 mini when you get it? He has over 100 - gtx 1080ti’s plus other hardware. That’s roughly $85,000.00. You an your 1- z9 min $2000.00. I would scream too. We know who asic people are here!
That would be an interesting view - any links?
Some people want to take us as idiots .
Buy asic z9
Join to the forum 3 days ago
Then try to convince us that we should abolish our slogan , our declared terms . And we should adopt asic.
Then go further to claim they only support the tech and play the high moral .
Its not going to happen buddy .
And for Zooko
One can either be innovative with ideology that people look up to , or be another money grabbing person who puts ideology and ethics in the closet .
No shame in either but one cant be both . The first choice any how can still earn you money.
Please stop clinging to any execuse because your last one clearly showed how hard you are trying to justify your position. It was very painful to read.
Just speed up the voting process. We shouldnt be discussing if we are going to block asic . We should be discussing methods.
Stalling the process makes things much worse.
For the rest of Zcash team .
Are you still here reading this thread or you have some orders not to speak your mind ?
No need to convince ZcashCo they have already failed the leadership test, people with lots of investment will now move to other products…their failure is their inability to keep to mission statement and weaselly way they want to circumvent it and differing, they are just programmers.
Just because you don’t appreciate his stance on pros/cons between and ASIC and a GPU doesn’t mean you get to dismiss him entirely. You may not have concerns, you may be perfectly comfortable with the risk you decide to take (that’s fine, your money, your risk). But drawing attention to it is a valid point to make even though you take it as direct criticism to your choices. If a coin (or coins) that an ASIC supported became so over saturated with hash power that it completely diluted your ability to reap a profit due to too much competition or the next model being flatly superior in one way, or many ways, then yes your investment will be worth no more than the scrap value of the metal itself. It cannot be repurposed to another function, it only has a singular use case.
What bothers me is you passionately rebuke the what you believe was a criticism on your financial choices, then turn around and make the same style remark about those who are GPU miners, you undercut yourself doing that. Your assertion that a $1000 card would be worth “zero” (or of no sell-able value) when millions of used mining cards hits the market is completely untrue. It certainly wouldn’t be worth $1000, or probably anywhere near that amount, but it would never be worth Zero or close to zero. A person may not wish to sell their cards for less than X amount, but that’s a choice made, not an inability to “sell” the card(s).
hehehehe, i knew soon or late a lot of masks will fall and the real persons and their intentions come out slowly but surely, enough someone has the patience to follow it …
Here we see the best example of money talking. So much hypocrisy all the time just to verify why a small home miner is better than a a small asic miner. It’s all about keeping the status quo … not more, not less.
Far more than that, if you count developer salaries (and also that was the amount spent just on external auditing of Sapling so far; more was spent on external auditing of Overwinter).
Now now, one person does not represent and entire community, even if it is convenient to your point of argument. There are folks in the GPU world and ASIC world who share that frame of thinking. To suggest otherwise would be very naive. Everyone has their own motivations for being into Crypto, if his motivation is profit based, that really isn’t any less valid than any other position.
I own a 100x GPU mining farm. I would rather have the space mature and watch my holdings increase in value than make a little more profit from mining for a few months. It is important to think of the big picture and not just focus on the immediate future.
They guy @zooko thinks he is in high school of something with is post, guys that have sense are thanking the God’s for him exposing himself; to rescue the project he should be put to the background and another person with some stature should assume the leadership role, he is clearly just a programmer; I would not even call him a computer scientist his post are laughable, in reasoning ;0)
Good information to know. However he was trying to somehow make a connection between the Sapling/Overwinter costs and what costs might be involved in a potential fork. It could cost that, or may cost very little. Until the time is taken to see exactly what a fork would require to be effective you really can’t make a connection in cost between the two.
Just want to say that I’ve been GPU mining Zcash since day one and I am pro-ASIC, because ASICs do not really hurt decentralization. They might even increase it since more non-technical users can buy them and mine compared to the difficulty to setup and maintain multi-GPU systems. Further, most of the large players in Zcash mining already have massive farms beyond what any home miner can do.
The anti-centralization argument just doesn’t hold up.
Other companies will create an ASIC to compete with Bitmain, so that form of centralization doesn’t hold up either.
The facts point to an unfortunate truth that ASICs actually aren’t all that bad for a coin like Zcash. GPU miners will switch coins, adapt or move on.
It makes complete sense that gpu miners being forced to change would be upset that they are being displaced. I’m one of them so I know the feeling; but there is quite a lot of high-brow comments here from gpu miners claiming they aren’t just in this for money and that they actually care about Zcash - they don’t. They are here to make money.
I actually DO care about Zcash: quick Z_addr transactions, faster wallets, etc. An ASIC has nothing to do with this.
While i agree on a lot what you have said in other posts i do not in this one.
First of all it’s a risky business, we all now that. Everybody not willing to take risks wouldn’t be mine in first placce. There is no garantee for nothing.
And his stance is not in good faith, that’s the main problem. Other i would appreciate it, but that risk management advice is about FUD and not as a good advice and that makes the whole purpose total different.
And your second point: I especially wrote that i say that only as an example what someone could say, and questions someone else investement skills/risks. I do not do it and i will doubt that you will see another such remark, even not as an example. You took that totally out of context and missed the most important part:
Following your logic i as well could tell you (will do only so as an example).
This said, your comment is very unfair!
A possible gauge for heat production from the Z9…~~~ 300w it should kick out roughly no more heat than a 1080ti card running full tilt at worst. That’s not a big deal and probably wouldn’t be noticeable to be honest.