So you are willing to change POW algorithms after 6 months, after people have invested millions in new ASIC’s, but you won’t consider it now? Which chain do think miners would follow? Geeez.
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Maybe the problems us now…
As far as I know, and my knowledge is very limited, in order to de-anonymize a transaction you would need to do some sort of block chain analysis and bitman wouldn’t know shit looking at the zcash blockchain even if he would control the network.
So if you switched to a new PoW, and Bitmain kept running the old PoW and didnt switch and had 100% of the hashrate, How will people know what chain to follow and who the real Zcash is, there will be no GPU miners left by then to fork with you?
It didnt happen to monero because they forked before ASICs ran all the GPUs out. People were there to follow them to the new fork(by updating software) they all knew was the “real” coin.
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What an actor could do is rally the ecosystem (wallets, exchanges, merchants etc.) to reject the change to a new PoW. There would be open letters of support from industry leaders representing a substantial amount of economic activity to not make the change. In a nutshell, the threat of an economic blockade to curb any enthusiasm for making a change.
For example, a few months ago, when Bitcoin community members were considering a move away from sha256d:
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Sure, but this has nothing to do with how much hashpower they have, and it doesn’t seem to have harmed Bitcoin. I don’t see what the risk of that has to do with our decision about changing the PoW. If the worst case scenario here is that we end up like Bitcoin, that doesn’t sound too bad.
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So why did you even use a Equihash algo??? Why not just use what bitcoin already uses if that is what you wanted…sigh
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Think of a smart method to implement SPV wallets and don’t mess arround with POW.
You make a lot of good points - thanks for taking the time to post your take on it! I agree that if Bitmain had solid competition, ASIC wouldn’t be such a bad thing, and might help secure the network long run as long as hobbiests can still contribute (I think we are a ways from that).That all said, Quantum computing will become a problem that ASIC and ASIC resistant algos will run into, so that might ultimately be the biggest concern for ZEC and other Crypto alike. I’m sure all of us don’t want to see Bitmain controlling the ZEC network, especially those that invested tons in GPUs, but at the end of the day, I dont think we should sacrifice forward momentum to prevent the short term ASIC issue. It sounds like that’s not really in the playbook anyway, but that’s my take on it. I think as long as people like you are aware it’s an issue, and are thinking about a solution that best benefits the community, we will ultimately succeed.
@zooko I think your approach might be what is upsetting others. You seem to be defensive, as opposed to cooperative, even though your message is basically, “We understand the communities concerns and appreciate all of the feedback. We are aware that this is a touchy subject, and are doing what we can to address it. Currently, due to our release schedule, a change in PoW algorithm isn’t something we can address or accomodate immediately. We will continue to discuss this as a team and community, and will work to gain an understanding of our best path forward.” I think something like that would show that you aren’t brushing off the issue, and could help others gain confidence. Bitmain continues to build ASICs for algorithms that most weren’t expecting this soon. I think when you say things like “ASIC is innevitable” (not an exact quote, but something like that was quoted in this thread), you skip the approach. Although what you said is most likely true, I think why others are getting upset is how you are saying it, since it seems to lack empathy.
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Yep, changing to a new PoW would result in chain 1 with 100% Asic hashpower (old PoW), and chain 2 with 100% (presumably) CPU/GPU hashpower (new PoW).
Chain 2 would retain use of the Zcash trademark, so the ecosystem could easily agree on which chain is the “real” Zcash.
In this scenario then, it would be a bad idea to purchase the Z9 mini since there is no guarantee chain 2 would ever support it.
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How do you enforce a trademark in a decentralized market, with countries that never agreed to trademark enforcement? That is the concern I have, sure its trademarked, but this a world wide market and some people dont play fair.
I think what he is getting at is in 6 months time there may only be ASIC left on the network. You make a POW change, it breaks your now ASIC run network. Your network is now dead in the water on the fork, and they keep going on the old POW. What are you going to do? Roll back? That’s the problem with Bitmains high speed ASIC miners, they are set to work as the network operates “right now”. Make a change and you could very well brick everything off the network, your giving up flexibility for efficiency if his hypothetical is right. Your going to have to invest time and money to ensure anything you do is tested against Bitmain’s gear to make sure you don’t break your network support.
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Technically, you are correct, trademark doesn’t matter, but dev’s would be on the new chain which matters the most.
Functionally, the problem is, you now have everyone on the network using ASIC;s they paid a shitload for, and you are going to piss them off. Changing the POW at this point would be like “starting over” again, asking GPU miners to come back, and nethash will be low. This doesn’t seem very realistic to me.
Would they be asking GPU’s to come back? Would anyone come back after being forced out like it looks like we are all being subjected too? For how long? Until they can figure out how to get the ASICs to work again…why would anyone line up to get pushed out again??
Get your facts straight.
@zooko I understand where you coming from and please consider this question for a bit. Who were the first people that supported your network at the beginning of Zcash project? GPU Miners, not Bitmain. GPU miners are the first put real-world value by investing their GPU power to make the Z-cash network secure. Bitmain will hurt your project. ASIC mining incentivizes coin dumping. While it does make the network more secure, it has more downside long term for your community. In my opinion, yall do stick with Asics. That means yall don’t care about your community and GPU miners. This is coming from someone that does not own any z-cash. It also shows that yall are not committed to your principles.
Best wishes with the team decision
-Rob
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This is still going on?
Zooko has already stated his opinion and which way he is leaning. Sure looks like this will be a dual mining coin. Z9 asic and gpu.
But…
I agree. ASICS are the future. So cheap to run. Saves so much electricity. Think about the planet. Think about a better network.
STOP BEING GREEDY GPU GUYS.
You know full well that all miners will use up every bit of available power they have to mine REGARDLESS of what hardware is used. Whether it’s 300MW of Z9 or 300MW of 1080 Ti, the same amount of electricity will be used. So, don’t pull that crap about “GREEDY GPU GUYS.” Bitmain, isn’t greedy?
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Asics can not be stoped or so it seems. It is sort of like putting protection on software, sooner or later even dongle get cracked. So what is the point wasting time and energy on this futile cat and mouse game when privacy is what matters as far as zcash goes? If ASICs do compromise privacy somehow then they are a major threat.
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