@zooko Why don’t you change Let’s talk about ASIC mining to (Let’s accept ASIC mining) Isn’t that better?
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zooko has been stalling anyone with his double talk! He set in his mind. I think that all the gpu miners that are mining zcash should come together before it is way to late. We should sell or trade off all our zec and pull all our rigs from zcash now! Point then to what ever coin you like.You want to see someone freak. zooko will shit his pants! Pass it on to twitter and what ever forum you like. Think about it he is set and the Bitmain deal that seems to be in place is a go, look the increase the limit from 1 to 50 z9 mini’s. Whats that say? What are you going to lose? If you sell off now you maybe making a lot more off zec before the Asic’s start. I really think the price for zcash is going to drop bad!!
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Bitmain know that the zcash team will not do anything, so they can increase the limit.
Maybe they’re not selling as much as anticipated …
the real question after all is if I should buy an ASIC for Zcash or not? you can debate as long as you want, it won’t change anything. thats called progress. like Audi says: “Fortschritt(progress) durch(by) Technik(technology)” on german.
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Yeah it won’t change a thing. But if all the miners just pull all there rigs from zcash now and sell off all there zec that would change a lot!!
Thanks for the quick response.
I think you may have missed the point of my messages, I will reiterate them.
Your post seemed quite dismissive, yet failed to put forward any information that shows you have considered the possibility I raised as an outcome. Does this mean that you have thought about it but have dismissed it? or you have not thought about it and dismissed it? I am trying very hard to keep this as a technical discussion rather than a political one, technical discussions tend to be less emotionally charged. I would appreciate it if you could answer my questions from a technical perspective, and if you feel that a point can be simply handwaved away, please explain why rather than just handwaving.
If the worst case scenario here is that we end up like Bitcoin, that doesn’t sound too bad.
I do not understand what you mean by this. What do you see as “end up like bitcoin” to mean? What do you see as the worst case scenario? What does “too bad” mean? I am not trying to be obtuse, I genuinely do not know what you are trying to say with that statement.
I think a more accurate comparison would be the bitcoin early years. How many times did they need to fork to fix mistakes? At least 10 I can think of from the top of my head. These forks did not harm the network too much because people were mining with the flexibility of gpus. So the most that would be needed would be a miner update and possibly a wallet update. It is this flexibility you will be giving up for asic’s. If you are going to use the one miner scenario to dismiss this threat then that same argument invalidates the argument that asics are needed for network security, or even mining in general is needed.
In regards to xmr/xmo fork:
I think the monero fork is not a good example, when they forked they had both GPU’s and ASIC’s on the network. This is not where zcash will be in 2 months. It will have only ASIC’s
A better example would be electronium. Currently electronium is no longer a CPU/GPU/FPGA mineable coin. It only has ASICS on the network. This has happened in under a month. When they fork at the end of the month, Who will mine electronium? Monero has already soaked up the RX Vega GPU’s. The asics cannot follow. So who is going to mine that currency? Unless there is a massive price spike it is looking bad for electronium. The one thing they do seem to have which might save them is immense goodwill from their community, something that, at this moment, unfortunately seems thin on the ground with zcash.
you have to note that btc/bcash fork did not invalidate any hardware off the network. It would have only eliminated someone’s theoretical advantage (along with network upgrades). However the core team wanted to push some updates that could have invalidated only bitmains asics (not for spite, but for block sizes… iirc… there was so much politicking and fud going around at that time) It was a real mess. My point with this line of reasoning was the immense trouble it caused for something that should have been trivial.
Here is a more nuanced look at btc/bcash fork, segwit and not being able to fix vulnerabilities because you are beholdant to the asics on you network.
here is an over view for those not familiar.
My question from my previous messages still stand.
- How is zcash going to cope with a need for protocol changes after gpu’s stop mining the coin and only asics are on the network?
- What incentive is their for the gpu miners to come back to your coin to prop it up after a hardfork?
- What incentive is there for someone to buy a next gen asic when you made their last asic invalid?
- for the coin to be dynamic it needs miners that have the ability to make changes as the coins develop. How do you propose to keep this flexibility whilst having only asics mine the coin?
Just as an aside I dont dislike bitmain. they seem to get a lot of hate, im pretty ambivalent on the subject. it would be nice if every company was another bitfury, but at least they are not another BFL. This is not an anti bitmain post, nor is it really anti asic. it is more pro resilience. I strongly believe now is not the time to lock in to bespoke hardware.
Thanks.
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I guess enough ASIC would replace our rigs and if you sell every coin you wasn’t here for the privacy point, so no point to remain here from the beginning
In Russia you don’t have any chances to buy it as in other countres. You can buy the GPU’s from market world prices without any problems. So it seems that russian people have no way to go because they can’t buy the ASIC and on future they will can’t mine Zcash on their GPU’s because Zcash spit to faces of the all GPU’s miners.
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btw a ASIC is more eco friendly and don’t get me wrong I am too a bit pissed about all the GPU cards I bought, but again it is the progress I guess
There is no such thing as privacy here. Sooner or later you’ll have to exchange the zec for something else or fiat to pay you power bill and then where is your privacy? Privacy is only good if you are never going to use the coin! And another thing with the Asic there is no privacy. Bitmain has your address.
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@mistfpga thanks for the quality reply and conversation.
Did you also see @nathan-at-least (COO of Zcash) reply? Let’s talk about ASIC mining - #1522 by nathan-at-least
The increase to the Dash difficulty was 20 times within 60 days.
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Of course, you are right. Only a fool who deceives himself and others is not able to calculate it. I was also a fool 5 years ago, who focused on the purchase of ASIC, because the equipment was to bring such colossal profits. But when I calculated how much I would actually lose, when the difficulty of mining would inevitably increase, the flaps fell from my eyes. Not for ASICs. If the Zcash developers let in this cancer, there will be no turning back.
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It seems like some people think that mining equipement is free and they do not care if we loose tens of thousands of $$$ because they decide or not to change (or not) the PoW now or later. This is a huge deal implying a lot of money
Just to make it clear: if you decide to change or not the PoW is a multi million $$$ question for us!
AND if you change it now or in 2019 is also a multi-millions $$$ question for us!
So please don’t take it lightly!
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I think all GPU miners would like to know the answer to this from nathan-at-least and Zooco:
Can you explain clearly why you can’t change the PoW before sapling activation?
At least we will know why we will be forced out of Zcash mining and loose millions of $$$.
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The real problem with a privacy coin and ASICs is that privacy coin will be (and already are in many countries) the first coins targeted by governement for banning. They can try to shut down the coin by asking exchanges to stop trading privacy coins (what Japan already did) and they can also forbid privacy coin ASICs.
Once Zcash is ASICs only and all the gpu miners are out of business for good. It will be easier for governement to decide which coin they allow by just asking Bitmain to stop shipping privacy coin ASICs to their country.
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Good point. Bitmain destroyed the then existing dash ecosystem completely.
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If Zcash end up like Bitcoin, it’s very bad in my opinion. One thing that will differentiate shitcoins from major coins is how they are DIFFERENT from Bitcoin and UNIQUE in all the ways that they can.
A little psichological problem is - i realy love zcash and
it will be a little sad for me to leave zcash comunity, but i will do it when zcash will be not profitable for me.
You can still be a member of the Zcash community, even if it isn’t profitable to mine.
You can send and receive Zcash, post to http://z-board.net, contribute code if you are a coder, evangelize Zcash in your community, help the Zcash community decide what are the most important improvements to make and who needs Zcash most, etc.
If it isn’t profitable to mine ZEC with your setup, why not mine XMR instead? If you really want to hold ZEC, I suppose you could always trade the XMR you mine for it.
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