Don’t think the UX is the main barrier.
Did you actually try to vote? Because it actually is one of the main barriers.
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UX is definitely a huge barrier to voting. I was shocked at the turnout given the UX!
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It needs to improve and it already has. More, much moar.
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The posters who state that coin voting is the only legitimate form of decentralised governance and that direct onchain enforcement of decisions is necessary are concerning me. Their statements appear factual at first reading but are actually just forceful assertions with no, or at best weak evidence.
“Your token will suffer if you don’t adopt pure coinholder voting”. “The market is watching.” “Do what’s good for you.” Miles Jennings writes about Machiavelli for DAOs and explains the kind of behaviour this hints at.
I also don’t think ZCG is broken. Its Continuity (expert legacy) legitimacy is strong enough, but I do think it will gain even more legitimacy by more Fairness (shared power) by changing to a ZCG committee of both ZCAP-appointed (majority of seats) and coinholder-elected (minority of seats) members.
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from the start this THV is a bad name and it is a sign that this guy has no ideea about Zcash and should be cast out from expressing his stupid ideeas.
As I said before Zcash is a COIN and not a Token.
A token is a mouse generated something with no inteinsic value.
Please remove the proposal
Restricting who should be part of the community and who should not? And you are telling us @thowar2 has no idea about Zcash? Take a mirror and look into it mate.
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zcash is not a token…is a coin…has intrinsic value.
he doesn’t understand the fundamentals of zcash or he must propose it differently based on fundamentals not as token.
Thanks for sharing that, the article makes some insightful points. So when discussing topics, especially one as complex as governance structures, I think it’s important to learn both sides of the argument.
Having read that article and arguments of members on here, on balance I think I was wrong about being extreme regarding the 100% THV and on chain governance when it applies to ZEC. And I did not fully consider the valid concerns/issues when it comes to a pure decentralised governance, such as lack of coordination and participation. Also that the average coinholder does not understand the inner workings to a deep level.
On the other side, Machiavelli explains it better than I can in the article:
“…the primary object, in practice, of all rulers is to serve their own interest, to maintain their own power and privilege. There are no exceptions. No theory, no promises, no morality, no amount of goodwill, no religion will restrain power.”
This is fundamentally what it boils down to. There need to be checks and balances. The ZCG/ZCAP are programmed to protect their own privilege.
This pretty much sums up the situation, with all this murky, not clearly defined ‘community’ labelling:
When left unchecked by other powers, “Bonapartist” leaders are likely to arise in democratic organizations, claiming “to be the most perfect embodiment of the will of the group, the people. Everything, therefore, is permitted to him since he is merely the symbol of the group as a whole.” Applied to DAOs, this principle suggests that DAO leaders could perpetuate their own power — or that token holders could face difficulty in holding them accountable.
Establish a balanced leadership class that is subject to perpetual opposition
I think as it stands a bicameral setup consisting of ZCAP and coinholder voted members makes logical sense as a balance between leveraging expertise of the inner team while providing checks and balances
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What do you mean here?
What’s your estimate of the turnout?
I mean the dev fun is a tax on stakeholders (owners of ZEC).
What’s a “tax”?
Oh, well clearly that’s not the definition you’re using elsewhere.
@dismad do you have numbers of the Average voter allocation, median vote weight and those kind of things?
I have the sense that as for today, ZEC holding is concentrated in some few hands and that its initial “fair launch” was subject to the laws of capital concentration of the global economy of the last 10 or 20 years. If vote power is too concentrated in a few hands, then I foresee that CHV will lose its appeal for the average Zodler since its voting power is null and merely testimonial. I think that’s a losing game for Zcash in the mid/long term.
It would be interesting to explore other methodologies of coin vote weighting so there’s an equilibrium between the person that needs ZEC the most (a whistleblower with all of its funds captured by gov’t and surviving on ZEC donatios) and someone that has a broad fortune that can acquire a lot of ZEC (for example the gov’t hunting the whistleblowers).
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I have never heard of a single other methodology that is Sybil resistant. Have you?
Life is simple:
- Option 1 : 1 ZEC = 1 Vote
- Option 2 : Terminate the dev fund
Reminder: We are talking about voting on the spending of the inflation. In this context, more skin in the game should certainly give you more voting power. Seems like it’s not very popular around this forum, but in the real world it’s pretty common sense.
For everything else, it’s Nakamoto Consensus (until PoW+PoS, then not quite sure tbh).
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I’m not a specialist in that subject and I haven’t. Although current CHV is not Big Money resistant. Thinking adversarially from the PoV of someone wanting to destroy Zcash, I don’t know which is cheaper, capturing CHV o performing a 51% attack. That would be a nice R&D work for someone to do.
If there was a true Zk way of linking a pool of funds to a person, then it would be interesting to explore quadratic funding or similar, but given the threat model againt Zcash I’m thinking of is that Mallory and Eve are actually the US gov’t and the EU… they can perform Sybil attacks with real “Zk-passports”. 
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There’s no solution. We all waste too much time on this question. It’s only two options. We can vote on it any way you prefer, I’ve accepted both scenario and I’m confident we can succeed with either. Anything in between will waste a lot of precious time for everybody.
btw, you’re heading straight into what privacypools.com is doing. I would hate for Zcash to go in that direction.
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hey pacu I posted the copy of my vote.db file which is all the info I have access to:
Using a DB browser should give you easy access to the data:
I am concerned about this too. I am very much interested in testing out other options but I do think coin voters should be included in some fashion. I encourage more folks to get involved in terms of the “operations” side.
In terms of the “why” and the “how” questions, that is what we are here to debate 
I think the best way to understand something however is to “use it”.
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