RE: Monero False Flags

Agree, with the caveat that the person is also part of the forum and can respond to the criticism. Otherwise how will they know?

For example:

Ok form of criticism:

I saw the other day that [ X] @ person was posting this on [social media] [link] against Zcash and as a result I think [ X] should be excluded from [whatever]

Poor form of criticism:

[ X] is just a scammer. You all are a bunch of idiots for letting [ X] do [whatever] and [whatever]. I saw them doing [whatever, no link] this one time. All members of [ X] group should be automatically excluded from [whatever] because of this betrayal.

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I consider this to be a personal attack:

(screenshot for posterity:)

Because it falsely insinuates that someone (me) has dishonest and malicious intentions. Be aware that Matt Green, who wrote the above, is a member of the Board of Directors of the Zcash Foundation, which owns this forum and which — if I understand correctly and unless this has changed — pays Shawn a stipend to serve as chief moderator. I strongly believe in Shawn’s integrity and good intentions — he has just about the longest track record of any member of the Zcash community — he’s basically the first member of the Zcash community, or one of them — and his track record has zero occurrences of anything other than acting with the highest integrity. So I do not want this comment to be mistaken as a slur against Shawn’s character, but I want everyone who sees this to know that there is an inherent conflict-of-interest built into the Zcash Foundation’s ownership and operation of this forum.

To be clear, I very much do not want that comment to be edited or removed. On the contrary, I want it to remain so that people can see it and learn from the fact that it was posted.

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There’s been way too many allegations over the last week. Shawn is one of the most balanced, unbiased people I know, and that is in no way compromised by the fact that he moderates these forums and ZF operates them.

By the way, I would consider the phrasing of the topic “Does the Zcash Foundation support ZEC holders” to be a personal attack. I would also consider the claim about the Zcash Foundation staff “having yet to deliver any results” to be an attack on all of the Foundation’s staff.

But what is there to gain from any and all of this? Can we just get back to contributing towards shared goals and stop all the pointing of fingers?

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Am I reading this correctly @zooko ?

You feel that I have somehow given members of the ZF a lighter hand on moderation enforcement solely because they are from ZF?

If so, you could be correct but know that same more “flexible” application of rules also applies to you, members of the core developer teams, employees of ECC and ZF, and the founding scientists of Zcash whenever you are discussing core Zcash issues.

Why?

Because you guys are literally Zcash

Your work, efforts, debates, discussion, agreements, disagreements, etc… are shaping the future of Zcash, in real-time.

It is vitality important for the community, investors, and zolders to see and understand what is working and not working between the two organizations so they can be informed about the future of Zcash.

If you’re saying my motives are inherently biased because I am working for ZF, and I’m not here every day working to serve the Zcash communities best interests, but somehow trying skew the conversation in ZFs favor, then simply say as much, plainly, and I will depart tomorrow.

I will donate the zcash community URL to the ZF to do with as they see fit.

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Ugh, no!! You’re not reading that right! I’m so sorry you saw my post like that, Shawn. I don’t think that about you, and I tried to be as clear as possible in my post that I don’t think anything negative about you. I hold your integrity in the highest esteem.

My point is that the Zcash Foundation as an institution has legal ownership and control of this forum, and that constitutes an inherent conflict-of-interest, which can become an issue when there are contentious discussions that are important to the Zcash Foundation or that involve Zcash Foundation Directors.

A data point is that the post from a Zcash Foundation Director, alleging that I have dishonest and malicious intent, was allowed to stand, but my post hypothesizing that Rhett Creighton and Riccardo Spagni might be engaged in dishonest and malicious behavior was locked and deleted by the Zcash Foundation. (Along with comments containing good points relevant to Zcash governance by Sean Bowe and David from ZcashMedia. I hope they repost those.)

I sincerely believe that you, Shawn, are doing the best possible job under the circumstances and that your intentions are unimpeachable. I sincerely hope that you recognize the trust I have in you — and that I believe everyone in the Zcash community has in you — and I hope you remain an active pillar of the community.

But I don’t believe this forum can serve as a credibly neutral venue for important discussions, since it is owned and controlled by the Zcash Foundation, and I suspect it is infiltrated by adversarial agents.

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Zooko! A public post by you alleging that Zcash Foundation engineers have been up to essentially nothing in terms of results was also allowed to stand. According to you, the only good work the Foundation ever did was in relation to Zcon and Comms by Dan and myself. Your description in here is very selective. And I say this with the utmost respect for you.

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If this is the case, then it means that I have failed in my primary duty as head moderator of this forum.

I am mentally and physically exhausted from this job.

I will be tending my resignation to Jack as soon as the UK wakes up.

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I won’t lie Shawn, I’ve enjoyed working in this ecosystem, but this week I too considered leaving because no one needs this drama in their life.

I beg you to not take this step please.

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@zooko I really hope you can take a moment to sit down and think about how despite your best intentions, you could be causing detriment to this community with polarizing statements and baseless accusations. I look up to you, that’s something I have even said to you in private. But the accusatory statements this week have been demoralising to people who care so much about Zcash and I don’t think you understand that.

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Shawn, I’m extremely sorry that you feel mentally and physically exhausted and that you think my concern about the legal structure of this forum reflects badly on you, and I’m extremely sorry that we’re losing your long and excellent service.

For the benefit of those reading, and perhaps also yourself, I want to point out that your quote of my comment, shown above, ends with a comma, because it omits the reasons that I gave for why I don’t believe this forum can work as a credible neutral venue. The reasons have nothing you do with your integrity. The reasons I gave are:

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I’m going to offer to get you tickets to a spa in Denver, Zooko. If there’s a package type that interests you, you have my Signal number.

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This is why I offered a public call to chat about this. It is easy to get message lost in text!

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The reason I personally have chosen to become vocal recently is because ZF is catching a lot of flack in a really unfair way. Our leadership and a lot of our team is new. Our ED for example joined ZF in February 2021. Along the way, we got new team members including a new COO who have absolutely nothing to do with the qualms many of you have, including myself.

I’m taking all these things personally because not many of you understand the dedication that the Zcash Foundation staff has towards Zcash. To be asked if we support ZEC holders is down right an insult given the circumstances that many of you are aware of.

To continuously attack us with all kinds of claims is outrageous and mean spirited especially for those of you who know what some of us have had to deal with while continuing our mission in supporting Zcash and general privacy. We’re working on improving based on your feedback. Some compassion however would be nice.

Enough is enough.

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I had a close family member lose their eye sight between the time I joined ZF and now, ZF staff know about this. And yet I’ve continued to show up with integrity every single day, to serve the Zcash protocol that we’re accused of not caring for :joy: :rofl: :rofl:.

Zooko fam, my 11 year old nephew just lost his eye sight and I’m on here on a Friday night weighing in on Zcash and its operations. I also didn’t take a single day off for his surgical procedures, you can run that by ZF who advised me to, in case you’re concerned about ZF staff’s investment in Zcash!

Plus, I also actually started running a campaign this week that is doing so much good for ZEC during this market volatility. I don’t need drama and neither does ZF or Shawn.

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Okay, this has been one heavy week in the crypto markets and the Zcash community & members from outside the community have been having serious discussions around the upcoming upgrade. At times like these, some posts made from the point of view of certain members might be taken in a totally different context if folks can’t put themselves in the shoes of the OP.

Example:

I respect Winfred for standing up for what they believe in, and I see that there is confusion around the point raised. Zooko asked an open question if ZF has the interests of ZEC(the currency) holders since some members have concerns around ZF’s mission being oriented to blanket privacy tech VS privacy effectively via ZEC the currency. This has nothing to do with the ZF engineers that you pointed to, who I believe we are so lucky to have - as their work, does attract investors, that Zcash will get an efficient Rust-based node client that will make it easy to build apps on top of Zcash network and grow adoption of ZEC. But again, the open question stays and we did see responses and discussions around it on the forum.

Yes, a lot of times these discussions take a toll on us, especially when some of us are working full time on ZEC, this is also the challenge of being in this industry. But some critical matters need to be discussed and inputs need to be evaluated and digested by the community, or these discussions would happen in backdoor meetings without involving the input from zodlers.

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With all due respect Adi, and you know I have a ton of respect for you, Shawn is on the verge of handing a resignation to Jack tomorrow morning. And you as well as I know that he is one of the MOST respected people in this space.

If Shawn is considering a resignation, IMHO, we all need to reflect on why this would be the case. Idk Shawn btw, have never met him either, was hoping to at Zcon.

Like can we do a cost benefit analysis of the most recent actions on this platform? I’m an Economics student and graduate. I view things from an economical perspective too. And I’m very objective BTW, when it comes to both ZF and ECC.

Losing Shawn is A NET LOSS FOR ZCASH. Anyone that disagrees is dishonest with themselves.

Also going to add the quotes from Zooko on here:

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This is sad, I don’t think anyone can match Shawn’s level of dedication to managing the forums. And it is doubly sad if confusion around accusations causes his resignation. Words are being taken out of context and given face value as to who is saying them. Instead of letting the discussion prevail.

I don’t know who will replace Shawn, I hope they decide to stay, this is definitely a tough situation to be in for them.

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I agree. Does this forum have a pause function? It wouldn’t hurt. *)

Lately, I’ve been surprised every morning by the number of such topics here (when the forum is active life, in Russia comes night). I think there are too many bad emotions here. We ourselves are forced to moderate them under the rules of the forum. But they come out in bad posts. I have written very bad posts here many times, and I did not limit my emotions at that moment. Then I reread and deleted myself my emotions. Emotions go away, you realize that they set you up.

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Exactly both of you… I’m cautious of becoming susceptible to emotional manipulation. I won’t say by whom. I can only hope everyone on here has a good head on their shoulders to see a spade for a spade and not be taken advantage of. As someone who comes from a pretty strong historical and political background, I see everything for what it is. I know the kinds of things that people who have been historically and politically been blind to have eventually succumbed to too. But it’s not for me to open people’s eyes. For all I know, ZF doesn’t care about ZEC holders despite our emotional and physical investement in them lmao.

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Friendly reminder to everyone to take some times off. Go out, enjoy the sun, pick up your favorite console.

I think a lot of people here is misunderstanding each other and accusations of any type doesn’t help anyone, especially not Zcash.

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