Releasing mining rewards over 50 weeks

I miss some important information at verus bevor it makes some sense to take into account whatever from their experience:

  • what’s the market cap of this coin? Can’t find any info anywhere. I mention this because the lower the market cap the lower the dev responsibiity in generally, just in my opinion. I mean if you are responsible for a top coin and a market cap of $330M like Zcash it’s a different story than responsibility for a $2000 total market cap coin.
  • $0 volume currently on 2 minor exchanges nobody heared ever? This sounds more like miners are hoping and betting on a price speculation than being convinced by the time lock settings.
  • Random time locking/reward release? Just read it on bitcointalk. Nice, sounds like a casino coin (just kidding).
  • It’s a hybrid coin POW/POS and this makes more sense actually than like with ZEC on a dual POW design where 1 algo has time locking and 1 (the bigger one) won’t.
  • You noticed that this Verus coin has the highest mining pool centralization i ever saw? 1x chinese mining pool 83%, the 2nd one (again chinese) 13%, makes a total of 96% of hashpower for the top 2 mining pools based in china. Nice, i haven’t seen another coin with so much mining pool centralization yet and i have for sure researched a lot of coins. Top record, lol.
  • How long is the time lock period in average? I mean there is a difference if it’s 50 weeks or 1 week.
  • IF it’s that good with timelocking why didn’t they go straight with POW time locking only?

Just some toughts on that time locking Verus coin example…

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FWIW…

I like the algo-B idea, and I like the idea to make it interesting to ‘the little guys’ rather than large farms. Diverse hash is a very nice thing.

50 week timelock is overdoing it (a lot), the same could be achieved with less - 30 days would probably be enough.

A long timelock would be a huge disincentive & stifle growth - while small its vulnerable to farms with bad intentions, and they’re not going to be happy.

Just my humble opinion.

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I also don’t wish for you to get involved in a debate ;-), because you are a world-class cryptographer and there is much important cryptography that you could be doing that would benefit either Zcash users or other people around the world in the coming years/decades. But, yes, you — like many others on this thread — appear to be neglecting the second-order dynamic effects due to mining being a near-perfect competition between all players, with low barriers to entry and exit. My argument in Releasing mining rewards over 50 weeks is not that receiving coins that you can’t spend (due to a time-lock) is better for you than receiving coins that you can spend right away. That would be an interesting argument, and there might be something to it! But that was not the argument I was making. My argument is that—due to the second-order effects of mining—miners who are above-average in their willingness and ability to mine long-term will receive more coins with this feature than without it. (Probably just a few weeks of continuous mining will be sufficient to make you above-average, at least at first.)

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Thank you for your input, ChileBob!

I’m no longer a miner (since my personal local electricity rate makes all hardware infeasible) so I don’t count ROI or dreams GPU mining or rewards from such as one of my motivations to support Zcash.

But I will say one important way that hobby mining benefits the Zcash Ecosystem is the miners have ZEC to spend on goods and services. My concern would be that a time delay approach seems to run counter to a key aspect of driving Adoption; which is having more Zcash in more hands (sooner and more often) to help drive users to request/build services that accept Zcash.

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@zooko As an ASIC miner I’ve mined hundreds of ZEC, which I’ve held onto in the hope that my investment would appreciate in value. The opposite has ocurred and I’ve incurred significant losses as a result, and I’m sure there are many others on this forum who are in the same boat.

Large farms and ASIC manufacturers on the other hand have certainly been dumping their mined ZEC for BTC. This is indisputable as observed by the precipitous decline in the ZEC/BTC pair. So my question is why should the time lock be restricted to GPU miners only? It’s neither fair nor likely to achieve the desired outcome, simply because ASIC farms will still be able to dump their mined ZEC without delay.

If this proposal is to be seriously considered at all, then I suggest you expand the scope to include a delay in the release of the ASIC mined coins as well. I mine ZEC for the long-term investment and haven’t sold any to date, so it wouldn’t make any difference to me other than perhaps achieving the desired outcome.

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When I worked in a school, with summers off, my paycheck earned in 9 months of work was spread out over a full year. Initially I was upset that I didn’t get the full amount right when I earned it, but after doing it a few years realized I preferred to have ongoing pay through the summer for ongoing expenses (rent, utilities, etc.).
I think time-locking mining payments will have the same effect. Miners might start to match expected pay with things they can purchase with Zcash.

that’s fine and may have worked out as intended.

Just a simple question to make your example more comparable with ZEC.

  • Would it be comfortable if your payout currency would have a high volatility? Means would it matter if there was a chance that your paycheck would have only 1/4 or 1/10 value compared to the value when others got there paycheck and have been able to use their salery immediatly for whatever they have choosen?

  • Have in mind this time lock is only for algo-B, the 2nd algo, it’s not for the algo-A., the 1st algo where mostly much more hashrate is. So compared to your example, how would it be that only you and another guy in your school have timelocked payouts but the rest gets daily paid?

  • in your school summer example it makes some sense as you work 9 months and have 3 months break, mostly unpaid or? In mining you work 24/7 a full year, or at least it should be like that. In your example with this time locked payout you have an equal income for the unpaid 3 month season, this is not the case in mining.

It’s an interest experience how it works out at the school you worked at, but it’s not the same at a highly volatile market. I’am all for holding, but not at all costs. When i see indicators that make me believe there will be a huge price drop, as happened over the whole 2018 several times i would like to be able to do with my allready earned income whatever i want and not seing it vanishing in a hyper inflation without being able to do anything.

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Thanks for the input, Shawn! I don’t think that’s correct — since the time-lock coins are unlocked every week, rather than at the end of the year, then the miners do have coins they can spend, whether on paying for mining costs, buying goods and services, etc.

Yes good points
-time-locking inflationary fiat payments ensured my delayed payments were worth less, and even despite that, I still preferred it. Zcash does not ensure future payments are worth less like fiat does.
-whether my co-workers were also doing it affected me little, as it was my income and my expenses that mattered to me.
-true that miners likely go non-stop, but this could allow them the option to unplug (for economic reasons or other) and still receive a consistent income stream.

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Then it seems like I misunderstood the proposal. If the time-lock system is paying out every week where does the 50 week hold come in? Is it just the initial period of 50 weeks, thereafter paid weekly?

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I guess the inflation you have to deal with your fiat payments are around 0.5-3% at most per year, just a guess as this is what i would consider in the normal inflationary fiat range.
If there was a chance the inflationary could be +/- 100%, 200%, 300% or even 500%, how comfortable would you be? For me it would be highly uncomfortable feeling, comparable like enforced gambling in the casino with my paycheck…

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OK, I can see that argument might be valid - that the compeition for coins will be more amongst “long-term” miners, and thus if you’re one of this crowd you have an advantage. Still I’m a bit uncomfortable with it, as I felt the idea of this second algorithm was at a high level “to be friendly to the less-resourcsed”, e.g. non-asic holders, and this would make it inaccesisble to someone who can’t operate at a loss, at least for almost a year (or half a year or something - depends on the exact ratio between costs and reward), (in addition to operating at a loss at the start almost surely, you’d have to be financially comfortable enough to risk a long term loss if coin price goes down).

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As cypherpunks we should promote and create technologies that enhance freedom, liberty and privacy. The maximum of each of those as possible. That in turn will maximize the prosperity of the user community.

Promoting time-locks, enslavement, difficulty of use or anything that creates concerns and worries the user, goes in the opposite direction of the cypherpunk ideals and is in detriment of the coin and its community.
Forcing a mining time-lock will just direct freedom/liberty/privacy lovers on the look for freer coins to mine and use.

The user should make the decision to hold or sell the coin based just on its merits, not necessarily having to wait 50 or whatever number of weeks to make a decision. And that decision should not be imposed.
A mining time-lock with no market interest rate paid on the locked amount will likely just (in addition to reducing freedom and creating user concern) reduce ZEC price in proportion to the annual interest rate as perceived by the market.

[Moderation edit by @daira: the use of “enslavement” as an analogy isn’t appropriate. Please refrain from doing that.]

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Sorry to be unclear! I wonder how many other people on this thread are objecting to “lock up all coins until 50 weeks later” when the actual proposal is “lock up all the coins and then each week for 50 weeks, 1/50th of the coins unlock”. Make sense?

Earning the time-locked mining rewards is opt-in. If someone wants the time-locked mining rewards that the users/holders are offering them in return for mining services, then they can mine and they’ll receive those rewards. If don’t want that, then they can choose not to enter into that deal. That’s voluntary, consensual cooperation. Note that in the the next Network Upgrade (NU2 — Blossom, activating in the fall of this year), the new time-locked-rewards feature will only apply to the newly-introduced alg-B mining, not to the current miners.

Indeed, I think that is a big point of misunderstanding in this thread.

Perhaps rather than calling it a 50 week Lock up, calling it a “50 week GPU friendly slow start” or “12 month ramp up” to full GPU mining returns would be more explanatory.

When optional and unfair and competing on a dual POW with a fair alg-A, alg-B looks like a security hole as Daira said needs more investigation.
An unnecessary risk which just creates complexity and user concern.

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Old miner here, still believe in Zcash, although the trust keeps declining.

I myself would never let a Pool hold on to my coins, same as I dont leave my coins on a Exchange.

Mining for me allways was non commercial, let me explain this,
( because in the end, I need to get some money back for Power and Hardware ) I mined Zcash at times at a loss, same with Eth. Why ? because I have / had trust in the future.
In a market that’s stabil, you can follow this path, depeding on how deep your pockets are, or on what price your wiling to pay. If you needed money, you just could sell, with the price nowadays, A GPU miner allways mines at a loss and sells at a loss. I payed 500 euro’s per month on power ( hardware I wrote off the moment I bought it, I am aware some people ( and you should ) also take this in considerration ) without selling any coins, A real Hodler.
Thats what I mean with non commercial, mining at a loss, because you believe in the future.
I saw a lot of miners that had to sell on a monthly bases, just to cover the powercosts, they are gone, because since asics, that’s no longer doable with a price that keeps declining.
For me it was more intresting to instead of mining for 500 euro per month, to buy coins for 500 euro.

If I would mine Zcash again, there should be some major changes, 1 is that the price should be a lot higher, so I have at least a break even point, because non commercial mining is done for me. ( no one controls this, maybe with a tinfoilhad on, ok, but dont wanna go there )

2 I would never accept that my rewards get locked, as long as the coins aren’t on my wallet, they aren’t mine. So this proposal would make me say, No, I am not willing to mine under this conditions.

And to @daira @zooko, I can only speak for myself, but a lot of trust in Zcash on my part, is that people like @daira and @bitcartel are part of it. I strong believe in their knowledge to get Zcash forward on the road regarding the technical and core issues.
But hey, that’s just my 0.00000001Zcash :wink:

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Is it also because it seems he is against your changes?

Having him try and tell you that you are making a huge mistake with Zcash, that isnt beneficial? Why CANT you listen to other people Zooko? Everyone on here is against the change, there is zero proof you will get what you are even trying for. “But the community is more than the miners”…EXCEPT you keep making decisions that effect the miners the most

What you “appear to be neglecting” is you have no concept/proof/study/research to support your claims. And infact, I belive the opposite will happen. Why would I continue to mine a coin that is just as profitable as another coin, HOWEVER the first coin locks my rewards for upto 50 weeks…Why would I want to mine it? Sure, if Zcash becomes 5 times more profitable you might have people jump over to mine it, but was this because of time-locking or the price going up?

Please explain yourself, How does me mining for 1 year with NO locking, vs me mining for 1 year WITH locking, increase my rewards? The only way this is true, is if you are forcing other miners off with this change, thus reducing the difficulty.

Is reducing the amount of miners your goal? This is the only way you would make more coins in the same amount of time, how can you not see this? Maybe I am missing something? Please explain how I get more coins with time-locking

How does forcing people to lock the coins, change the mining at all? I dont understand. If Zcash is making me $1USD a day mining, how does locking my coins increase the amount of coins I will get? It does not. It reduces my choices. It reduces my freedoms.

It does not incentivises miners, it punishes them.

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