Zooko talking about PoS. PoS vs PoW Discussion


#21

A POS design allows whatever choice to be used. For example it could be possible that the stake size is limited to 10.000 for example, or that the Founders Reward wallet can not stake or just after a given period.
Whatever you want, the possible design solutions for POS are nearly endless, enough it’s made fair and with profesionalism.

So why wasting resources, manpower, money for another algo if these resources can be used directly for POS? Doesn’t make much sense to jump around bevor going POS. The team just should from now work on POS so we have it latest in 12 months or even earlier.

Additionally there should be proposals on different options how to do the design to have a fair POS system.


#22

In the end, the only fair PoS would be small amount + KYC.

Why not wait for ETH PoS and then start moving from there? You already got the best minds working on it, why invest resources on something you can simply ask for?


#23

All I see is the big boys with the big mining farms. With the biggest stakes in POS. So what happens if Zcash jumps into POS before Ethereum go’s to POS and maybe Ethereum POS doesn’t work out as thought. Anything is possible.


#24

Stake kyc in a system designed to protect your privacy? Ehhh… prolly not


#25

System designed with Zero Knowledge to protect you privacy.
They could work on a system to prove your ID is valid without actually sharing any information about it…

In Switzerland “we” already have public API’s to confirm validility of ID and passports, and I’m pretty sure many other country have services like this…


#26

Why waiting or copying from ETH? ETH, at least in my opinion, has an absolute different design, purpose, target, whatever. Whatever POS they are designing at ETH is being fit to their needs, thoughts and not Zcash ones. Zcash might have total different needs/views/requirements for a POS design, not?

There are other POS designs around allready, beginning from Kommodo up to Bulwark, NEO, and whatever not.

As said, in my opinion there should be different proposals, eventually voting, about how to setup the POS like minimum stake, maximum stake and so on, just to see what is needed for Zcash and than build a POS on these requirements to make it even better, more fair, and most important, fit to Zcash needs.

But that’s just my view of course.


#27

ETH sharding is the most promising of them all. Its more related to scalability (high volume tx) rather than “take this wallet and stake, your a node now”.

I don’t see PoS as something special, PoW in comparison is much more complex to handle, deploy and test.

You can make the same discussion after ETH PoS released and without wasting time and resources.

If I know next android SDK is going to bring me the new functionality I need, why develop my own from scratch? I understand who has millions to waste or has a very important dead line to respect, but I don’t see ZCash in a hurry to get PoS out there, they still have 2 years of FR which can be invested in much more important aspects.

Personally I think scalability > PoS


#28

If we go PoS I will be selling 50-80% of my Zcash to diversify into PoS coins in general. Mining inspires a sense of loyalty that investors in coins do not share.


#29

Idk, Imagine if all the money that are now wasted on ASIC’s sold by Bitmain and Insillicon were invested in Zcash as it would have been way to get more Zcash (by staking). Zcash price would be at least 300$ and that is the lowest estimate I can think off.


#30

imagine all the wasted $$'s for power used by GPU to mine Zcash

at least ASIC’s are more power efficient than GPU and in this day and age i am surprised that more people choose to used the energy hungry choice and stop the “environmentally friendly” alternative


#31

Well I’m surprised you cannot figure that out!

1.) GPU’S are easier to but then Asic’s You can go to your local computer store like Best Buy and buy a GPU. You cannot do that with Asic’s.

2.) GPU’s have more uses then mining. Asic’s don’t once there done or get forked off a algo. It’s very limited use. They will end up as door stop’s!


#32

I think switch to Proof of Stake is more than likely in 2020. Why ? Because after 2020 there are no more 20% rewards for Zcash developers and foundation. Are they gonna work for free? No. They will switch to PoS and earn Zcash by staking those 20% they are receiving as we speak.


#33

diversified income streams

Keep guessing


#34

I do think it’s important for the Zcash team to continue having funds for improvements and promoting adoption. What would you propose they do? Make the FR permanent?

I’m still undecided on PoS.


#35

I will again add my personal view about POS here. By now i think it’s the best solution and path that can be taken. And i will again add my the points why i think it’s the best that ZEC can do:

  • First of all i think no resources and working hours should be wasted anymore on whatever algo changes if the end result will be anyway POS soon or late. Instead of literally wasting resources on other algos when this could be used to work on a real good POS system?!

  • Going to POS would again make the “asic resistance” point valid.

  • Early GPU miners, enough they didn’t sell their ZEC, would again be in the game and could stake their ZEC they mined in the past. Same goes for the Asic miners. We as well have a stake and even if the Asics for later batches didn’t ROI yet (time will tell). The ZEC they mined until the POS change would still bring income by staking helping to reach the ROI point without expenses like electricity costs.

  • This eventually would as well bring together again the 2 fractions we have right now, previous gpu miners and current asic miners, as both parties would continue to stake the ZEC holdings they have und of course that should unite the interest from that point.

  • I would go even as far as saying the sooner we will go to POS the better. I own some Z9 minis, but seriously, i don’t care if they ROI.

  • With POS we just eliminate the impact of big mining pools, hardware producers, secrete minining and whatever. The argument the richer get rich is in my opinion not a valid one as it’s not different with mining either. The one that has 10.000 asics somewhere just gets more ZEC daily anyway, but with POS we eleminate possible attack vectors forever.

  • Additionally i think with POS stakers and ZEC holders are just more bound to ZEC, no more need to sell to cover electricity costs. It’s just logical that electricity costs are a factor for selling. While i personally was not forced to sell a single coin from whatever currency i mine, i dougt many of us have such option, if not the gpu miners that have more than 20 gpu’s. At some point you just have to sell part of the mined coins to cover costs, same goes for the larg-/er minining farms. Hence why i think that going to POS will increase the ZEC price.

  • POS would even balance the ZEC distribution from there. Right now we have mostly chinese Asic miners that can mine ZEC cheaper than many in the West. Be it the asic producer itself that mines with a unit for let’s say USD 300 while we mine the same amount of ZEC with an asic investment of USD 1500 (just an example!). Or the big mining farms that have access to very low electricity while we all have to pay 0.1 - 0.2 USD per kw/h. Right now all these have “cheaper” access to ZEC while with POS, everybody has just to buy it for the same price which in my opinion is a fairer distribution of ZEC.

  • And last but not least, let’s just face it. As soon as POW got really popular and profitable the hours are counted for us private personal miners. With such huge possible profits huge mining farms are not avoidable anymore. More and more coins get asic, more and more coins get POS. The whole hardware, even no matter if asic or gpu are forced to mine less and less coins for less and less rewards. Easy as that, private POW mining is counts it’s last days allready.

Hence that the only real solution by now is POS, eventually a hybrid like Kommodo and its notarious system if that is really needed.


Let’s talk about ASIC mining
#36

it is deja vu

i can bet i’ve seen this posts some time ago. same way divided by points. only difference then posts were convincing about asics but now POS.

here we go again.

P.s. bring zcash network back to gpu’s, and watch it becoming great again.


#37

You make some good points. Instead of miners endlessly buying better and faster hardware by selling Zcash just to stay in the race, HOLDers would get rewarded with no cost in electricity bills, maybe renting one small VPS for the node but that is dirt cheap. Sell pressure would disappear…


#38

Deja vu here as well. GPU mining for the average joi is over, same goes for private asic mining.

Just because i changed my mind from favouring asic over gpu and now favouring POS over POW in generally doesn’t make my points invalid. Yes, i changed my mind, i admit it and i look forward. These golden cpu and gpu mining years years are gone forever. I personally adapt to these changes and look forward, easy as that. But of course you are free to stay in the past. But just be advised that the past will be just the past and the future for gpu won’t be the same as in 96/97…

I personally stoped with the last Z9 minis from batch2 buying hardware but invest directly into different POS coins. While some of my test show that a good portion of the POS coins are nothing more than a waste of time at least it keept more or less the value and i lost nothing to very less, while others are bringing indeed a good daily income with 0 expenses to follow.

Why the hell feeding whatever outside hardware producer when the money can be DIRECTLY invested in the project someone believes and be directly rewarded for holding it? It’s the most logic way of all possible current options available in my opinion.

And now of course you can discredit my change of my personal view from pro asic to pro POS, but hey, changing views, adapting, looking for a better future is evolution, so does my mind and views. Just because i believed in a given period that asics are ok doesn’t mean i have to hold that point of view forever. POS gets more and more advanced, more and more coins switch to POS for a good reason. So why staying with the past when the future is elsewhere ahead?


#39

Exactly, this gets eleminated totally if you don’t need expensive hardware to be part of a given project or ZEC. Hence why i as well think that POS has way greater potential to get mass adoption and helps mass spreading than POW has. Enough ZEC works finally on a good wallet for windows and the doors are open that everybody around the world can invest directly in ZEC and get rewarded for it.

I’am not saying it’s the most perfect solution, but in the current state of POW it’s for sure the better one to eleminate all that money transfers for hardware that could be used for the projects directly. These are billions and billions of dollars that get “wasted” for hardware that could be used for ZEC directly.

Seriously, i could bite into my ass that i didn’t realized sooner that this would be the better option and used all the money i invested into hardware and electricity so far into POS coins and just laying back at home without feeding my electricity company month by month and all these hardware producers. However, here we have a saying, better late than never, lol.


#40

PoS is a bad idea for Zcash and leads to more centralization due to the founders reward for current PoS schemes; the way ZcashCo is taking Zcash, might as well make it a private crypto currency as it seems just a few people/entities will control the vast majority of the Zcash tokens 80%+ and are just looking for ways to offload it to users instead of concentrating of general crypto currency principles and features like Monero…it is hard to recover the initiative when you lose it hence I now see Monero as the defacto privacy coin.