Zooko talking about PoS. PoS vs PoW Discussion


#122

Clearly visible? Going on the list you supplied, if you are to belive it… Looks like pure PoS coins are only slightly better than Bitcoin, ranks 15-18.

  1. EoS - DPoS.
  2. Ethereum - PoW.
  3. BitShares - DPoS.
  4. Nebulas - Proof-of-devotion.
  5. NEO - Delegated Byzantine Fault Tolerance.
  6. Steem - PoW
  7. Ripple - RPCA
  8. GXChain - DPoS
  9. NULS - Proof of Credit
  10. Komodo - Delayed Proof of Work(dPOW)
  11. LISK - DPoS
  12. Stellar - SCP
  13. Ark - DPoS
  14. IOTA - PoW
  15. Waves - PoS
  16. Stratis - PoS
  17. Qtum - PoS
  18. Cardano - PoS
  19. Bitcoin - PoW

With 2 PoW coins in the top 10, and one of them in second place, you say POS is “more strong”…

EDIT: They have Verge listed as number 20, that is only slightly worse than Bitcoin. Everyone remembers what happened with Verge right? This list is trash.

     Rank / Tech / Application / Creativity

Bitcoin - 19th / 43.0 / 15.0 / 34.6
BitcoinCash 28th / 44.9 / 19.5 / 12.6

They have Bitcoin at 19 and Bitcoin cash at 28, however BitcoinCash scored better except in Creativity, so it has a lower score. Does this even make sense if its better in tech and application?


#123

I agree, the metrics on that list “Creativity” “Basic-tech” and “Applicability” seem ambiguous and subjective. The list might mean a bit more if we understood what exactly how they were being measured.


#124

Reasons I think PoS is better than PoW:

  1. Number of transactions per second. If we ever want to beat VISA in usability, PoW isnt gonna work, its too slow. We could research into Zcash lightning network like they do with Bitcoin or we could invest in PoS, but invest we must.

  2. PoS is investing directly into coin. All those ASIC supporters that say they are investing directly into Zcash are not correct. They can switch to other Equihash coins. Buying Zcash not only grows Zcash value, but also stops the endless arms race in ASIC hardware where only winner is Manufacturer. I read some say but what if Zcash goes to 0, i lost all of my investment. What if Apple stocks went to 0 ? But it didnt. If Zcash goes to 0, you can use your equihash ASICS as paper weight anyway.

  3. Its more fairer approach. Everyone can buy some Zcash and start staking, but not everyone can buy ASIC. Sometimes they are sold out, sometimes overpriced, you never know what next 3 month will bring in terms of difficulty, so your investment is not secure. Investing in Zcash in PoS system, you would have exact math on how many Zcash you will have in 5 years.

  4. Pollution. I dont care much about it, that is why its on 4th place, but a lot of people do. PoW is using high amounts of electricity every second. People mining Zcash have to pay electric bills each month, which forces them to sell some of their holdings, thus creating sell pressure.


#125

When i personally mention POS i have all of it’s variants in mind, be it dPos, POA and all the others as they are just different designs on the same idea…
Steem isn’t POW by the way, and iota isn’t POW as well but POA.

On the top 20 coins only ETH is ranked as a pure POW coin (until it switches to POS as well), rest is POS, “POS likes” or Hybrids… That’s trend, like or not want matter much …

Edit: In the top 28 you have only 7 POW coins, rest different POS designs or hybrids… As said, this allready speaks for itself.


#126

I think i found some info on how and what they score (See referencces at the end):

  • The weight of the technology sub-score in the composite index is 65%; the underlying technologies are being judged for their functionality, performance, security, and the degree of decentralization.

  • The application of a specific blockchain project counts for 20% of the final score. The evaluation model considers node deployment, wallet application, development support, and application realization to come up with a score.

  • Innovation, or creativity, makes up the final 15% of the composite score. The number of project contributors, the frequency of code updates, and the impact of a specific codebase are being evaluated for this sub-category. Because code updates in the most recent month change drastically, the scores in this sub-category can vary wildly.

https://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/the-global-public-blockchain-technology-assessment-index-updated-bitcoin-rose-to-no-10-and-nuls-20180817-00603


#127

If you want PoS just go buy the coin. And tell the company to pay a dividend like stocks do. Btw no matter how you acquire a coin. It is a “direct investment, you are part owner of that coin.” Who ever told you it’s not? If I had 51% of the coins no matter how I acquired them, that means I control 51% of the company. “Econ 101”
Otherwise I have to pray that the coin does not go to $0 and my money is secure like with stocks. Which is still a big risk, especially for smaller investors. Also with stocks you can buy insurance so if the stock goes to $0 part of your investment is covered so it’s not a total loss. But what you want from people right now in regards to PoS is way too much of a risk, it’s bad enough the crypto market is volatile. Now your taking on even more risk for less reward. Would you like my first born too. Lol
With PoS the people in the long run will make money, will be people with the money in the first place. What if the coin falls below what it is right now? Do I still receive the same amount of dividend every quarter or whenever the payout is? With certain type of stocks you do. “The divides will stay the same even if the stock goes down.”
In my opinion If you have a currency coin with a PoS that’s just dangerous because any one person could control the majority of that coin. Luckily for you someone like George Soros and his world wide agenda doesn’t like crypto’s or at least that’s what he says…


#128

if you own 51% of the stocks you also control the company in traditional stocks, so what is your point? Do you know how hard it would be to buy 51% supply of the coin? A lot harder than buying 51% hardware needed to mine it.

If a coin goes to zero, your investment in ASICS is dead. What are you gonna mine? Other coins on Equihash? Good luck with all the hashrate from Zcash spread across those coins. Its not even going to pay your electricity. So why is investment in ASIC’s safer ?

It doesnt matter if Zcash falls or goes up in $ value. If you stake certain amount of coins and do not move them, you keep getting the same amount of Zcash every month as you still hold same % of the network.


#129

Everything you mentioned applies to POW as well, but in a greater extend. Nobody is saying that POS is the perfect solution, but POS at least has the possibility to lower these gaps.

About some of your arguments.

If I had 51% of the coins no matter how I acquired them, that means I control 51% of the company.

  1. True, but it would be way more expensive than buying/renting hardware to get 51% of the network.
  2. It would be nearly impossible to accumulate 51% of ZEC. It would generate enormous “buy pressure” making the price per ZEC skyrocketing.
  3. Fair ground, someone buying directly coins has no price advantage, actually reverse. The more he wants to buy the more per coin he has to pay. In POW mining it’s not a fair ground. Bitmain could/does mining with Asics that cost them just “some dollars” while you and me have to pay at least 10x the amount for the same unti. Means that Bitmain for example can aquire the coin only from here 10x cheaper or 10x more than me and you. Let alone geographical mining facilities with access to low electricity that make that gap even bigger.

Otherwise I have to pray that the coin does not go to $0

  1. Uhm, i bet you pray as well that ZEC won’t go to $0 with POW mining. As an Asic miner myself i pray a lot that given coins don’t fall more, raise soon and and and.
  2. Actually on my POS coins i’am way more relaxed as i have 0 expenses to cover. Once i get a bad feeling about a given POS coin i can just in 2 minutes exchange it to whatever. Now let me know do you feel the same with your/my D3’s, L3’s, S9’s and so on? I can tell you from own experenience it’s not a relaxed feeling with my Asics, lol.

With PoS the people in the long run will make money, will be people with the money in the first place.

  1. It’s worse with POW, easy and simple as that. In POW the money invested per coin is way more in favour for the big pockets than in POS. Actually in POS the big pockets have to pay more for accumulating a big stake while in POW they have to pay less per coin mined.
  2. In POS their are possible mechansims and designs to make this gap smaller, while in POW their is not a single one to prevent this.
  3. In POW the people making the most money aren’t even these with a direct relation to the project:
    a. Monthly the electricity companies make a huge profit from POW
    b. Asic and GPU producers make a huge profit from POW
    c. Mining Pools make as well a good percentage from POW as a middle man.
    Not only that money is driven out of crypto space with point a/b but with POW we have to spent continously our mining rewards for electricity and new hardware to keep the level up. By now and current state i think we can state that our hardware bought from now won’t ever ROI. While we all mine 24/7 we didn’t at all accumulate anything as all the mining rewards are equal or less for what we invested into hardware and electricity. Absolutly unlogical by now at the end of 2018.

In my opinion If you have a currency coin with a PoS that’s just dangerous because any one person could control the majority of that coin.

Actually in my opinion it’s reverse as it would be way way way more expensive to control that coin with POS. The danger lies exactly in POW:

  • theoretically a consortium of the big 1-3 mining pool easyly could control/hurt a given coin. Even no investment needed.
  • it’s several times cheaper to rent/buy hardware for 51% of the network than accumulating a 51% POS stake. The younger the coin/project the easier it is with POW. For example if we take ZEC. So far nearly 5.2M ZEC are in circulation with 15.8M ZEC to be mined in future. As you are taking Soros ax an example i’am making another one with Bitmain themself as the bad guy. If they build for their own now 50.000 Z9’s they would have about 50% of the hashrate and logically, get 50% of the daily rewards. If we assume that the cost for an Z9 is at most 500$ they can aquire of all future ZEC rewards for just 25.000.000$, bargain compared what it needs Soros to pay for a 51% stake? There is another bad side effect on that scenario, the more asics Bitmain would make their own, the less profitable stay the other mining facilities, means over time producing more asics for themself the easier it gets to get more and more hashrate and mining rewards as they drive out mining competition. Just in theory as an answer to your Soros argument.

#130

PoS can also be designed to require more than 51% if I am not wrong. 51% is tied to PoW based algorithms, but PoS can be designed to require 60, 70, 80%. Just throwing that in.


#131

pos

Vitalik just posted this 2 minutes ago, I couldnt agree more :slight_smile:


#132

Why is it unsurprising that those with the most to lose (the hodlers) would be the strongest voices against introducing PoS.

The simplest answer is they don’t want to risk it, it provides hodler will less tangible gain for greater risk. Sure their are gains for other actors, but none for hodlers. It is a little strange he doesn’t understand this.

I find Vitaliks word choice very surprising. To me, he is saying “look hodlers, PoS will make the rich richer (you are the rich). why would you not want to be richer? why are you fighting, an untested on this scale technology, backed by the risk of your money.”

Nothing to do with Vitalik, but I dislike eth and everything it stands for. .

I will stick to crypto advancements like zksnarks and starks.


#133

There may be more spending pressure with PoW but having less spending pressure is not such a great thing if you want the crypto to be used and not just hodled.


#134

The big problems I have with PoS is the rich get richer with just a one time investment that compounds interest,
for the duration of the coins lifetime. They will gain a bigger percentage of the staking over time if they control the most coins. Its the definition of rich get richer

Another reason is alot of them have you lock up your coins in a stake, the point of currency is to spend it, not lock them up where the longer they stay locked/unused the more they can gain.

PoS makes people NOT want to spend the money they have, as it will reduce their rewards. The thing giving crypto alot of its value, is its use as a currency. If people dont want to trade/spend it, it has failed as a Medium of Exchange AKA money. Its a bad form of currency if people just want to hold it in an account to gain more of it and dont want to spend it.

CURRENCY refers to money in any form when in actual use or circulation as a medium of exchange


#135

Well I am sure you’ve heard of such compound interest at banks, where you lock your money for some time. Still as you said a lot of them have that locking requirement, but not all. I dont like locking your coins, and the PoS i would envision is one that just adds mined coins at the end of the day of each active wallet in case they have 1 or more Zcash. By active i mean they moved their coins in last year.

Rich get richer is always the case. I could argue rich can afford to move their mining equipment somewhere where price of electricity is very low, but can average joe ? No he mines usually from his house where he pays residential electricity rates. Investing directly in coins that produce compound interest is best way for everyone to earn their share of zcash.

PoS makes people not want to spend money they have, easy to say that at Zcash = 130$, sure but once it goes to 2000-3000 $ do you think people wont spend it then ?


#136

From some of the videos I watched on POS. The wallet must be connected to the internet 24/7! So if you have in on your phone, pc, what ever they have to be on 24/7 to! That’s active.


#137

Yea
What does mining do? Verification
What does staking do? Verification

How secure do you think the network would be when most everybody has their computer off?!


#138

You turn off your phone?


#139

At work I have to. No phones allowed on and on the floor. 40 hours off a week unless overtime.


#140

Actually not all. There are POS coins you don’t need your wallet to be open, NEO and Komodo are mostly the most popular examples for this.

An easy solution for 24/7 open wallets are:

  • VPS service, costs around 5% per month, peanuts compared to mining
  • an old Laptop connected to internet, that’s what i do, only POS wallets there, absolutly nothing, again a cheap solution and without display on electricity consumption is minimal.

Compared to 24/7 POW mining these are easy and cheap solutions for sure…

Edited: Corrected a typo, wrote VPN instead VPS


#141

About richer get rich, this applies more to POW. Actually you make even the electricty companies richer and the gpu/asic producers richer as well as a nice side effect instead of yourself, lol. I won’t mention all the arguments which makes in POW the richer get rich more. The main argument that average joe has not access to cheap electricity locations, cheaper hardware or hardware at all speaks for itself. Again, in POS there are mechanisms and designs that reduce this gap while in POW they enlarge the gap without any design possible to make this gap smaller.

About looking them up in POS. From ALL POS coins i have tested so far actually only 1 needs the coins to be locked and i personally wouldn’t use such POS coin. There might be some other coins that needs looking them up but from around 30-35 personally tested POS coins i encountered this only once, hence it’s not practice at all.

About not wanting to spend them. Nobody forces anybody NOT to spend your POS coins, trade them, do whatever you want with them. But these that instead of trading or using it help the network staying secure are rewarded for this task, absolutly normally. Nobody forces you to stake all. Stake half, trade with the other half as an example. Or spend the rewards, that’s what i’am doing on some coins. I use the rewards, daily to spend them. Now tell me how often do you spend your POW rewards? I bet never and if we are really honest, we just wait that the price raises again like next year and wait to sell our POW rewards to make a good profit.
How logical is this that “money” is kept until it rices to use it?
And as a side note, see the POS wallet as an idle device. When you don’t use it you get a reward. I doubt you spend and use and trade 24/7 all the year. Pay whatever you have to pay with your POS currency and let’s stake the rest and secure the network, easy as that.

This said, all you have posted is actually in favour of POS, especially this sentence:

PoS makes people NOT want to spend the money they have, as it will reduce their rewards.
It’s way worse in POW, how many people do you know that spend now their ZEC, lol. Everybody is waiting it gets to the moon and than again, they won’t spend it but exchange it. Every ZEC POW miner is holding right now his mining rewards in hope of a way better exchange rate, easy, simple and honest as that.

This said i will correct your main sentence: POW makes people NOT want to spend the money they have until a way better exchange price so they can finally pay back their investment for hardware and electricity and maybe, with some luck, make a profit.