A note about controversy and culture


Actually they start and end at the same time. One chart just got out cropped different. Just look at the time frame both charts (Monero/ZEC) are showing and you will see that they both start June 2018 and end right yesterday…

Let me know if you want all charts beginning from 2017, no problem either


Maybe if you shared some of these results, like who you talked to, and why they think this is the right choice, and some of the data they used to come to this conclusion , maybe the naysayers would see the benefits. Its easy to say I talked to people and they agree.

All we keep asking for is some type of proof.
Or maybe WHY Zooko thinks this way, and what has lead Zooko to this conclusion?
Why does Zooko feel so strongly that this is the right choice?
How many “experts” has Zooko talked to about this?
What studies have shown Zooko this is the correct choice.?
What sources does Zooko have, that makes him think this will have the effects he is looking for?


Not ex-post-facto, but I’m thinking maybe I should start keeping a notebook going forward for this purpose.

Is Zcash Still For You?

Why does it feel like your have a ulterior motives with this DualPoW and time-locking. You refuse to tell us who you talked to, but yet this is what you are basing your decision on.

You wont release any information that supports this proposal. You keep ignoring my requests for anything documents/proofs/studies/research/tests that show this is a good idea. The only information that has been released so far shows it might have a security concern and open up new attack vectors.

You wont tell us who you talked to, You wont show us anything the proves its a good idea, Do you want us just to take your word for it? That is all you have going for it right now…I have lost trust in your “words” when ASICs were released , this is why I cant belive this is a good idea.

Please all I am asking for is something that shows any type of proof this will have the effect you are looking for, otherwise you just came up with these terrible idea on your own with nothing to back it.

I ask again, Why are you so SURE this is the right choice for Zcash?


Tread carefully. Most of this post is fine, but impugning people’s motives without very strong proof is not okay.


Take it how you want, I never said his hidden motives are bad…

EDIT: Zooko constantly repeats he is trying to “make miners long term investors” but refuses to show us why he thinks this way. So yes, I do question him and his motives(not saying he is doing wrong!!!).

I have not seen him release anything to show why this is a good idea, this is a good reason to question him and why he is so motivated for this change no?


In PoW/PoS, consensus relies on economics, and thus mining economics are inseparable from protocol design and security engineering. The analysis and simulation that @daira showed, for multiple protocol variants, are a great example of this. If it’s not the job of the engineering team to do this analysis, then whose job is it?



@Lisfin has been all over this forum asking for the rationale behind the proposal to create debt instruments instead of money (that is also to be made to the current PoW according to ticket #3774).

However there’s only been vague hand waving and nothing addressing substantive objections.

Obviously he’s not being heard because all he gets is “trust me” and “I’ve talked to people”.

To get classical, to pursaude an argument requires:

  • pathos (passion)
  • ethos (credibility)
  • logos (logic)

I doubt anyone is questioning Zooko’s passion, but the logic is plainly absent and has not been provided. Accordingly Zooko is appealing to his credibility and position of authority to persuade this forum.

I would say it is natural to question the credibility of a proponent of an argument when the proponent is plainly relying so heavily on his credibility.


I don’t object to people asking questions, being critical, or expressing frustration. I do object to unsubstantiated claims that another person is lying or otherwise being intentionally deceptive.


I agree, we all should stay fair, correct and without name calling. It’s thin ice when it comes to really controversy topics like the “asic mining one” and now this “time locking one”. These topics seem to have a lot of heat.

As said, i agree, that we should all confirm on politly communicating even if we express absolutly different positions. But this should include as well that Zcash/Foundation/Forum members are a role model/example of such behavour.