Allow “special exception” to the Orchard codebase for the Monero Project

ZCash bag holders that pay for this development screaming into the void

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Friendly reminder to please keep the discussion on the topic of licensing Orchard tech and not get off into the weeds rehashing the many other grievances between the Monero and Zcash communities.

Also, remember the CoC rules against making personal attacks.

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Thanks for keeping things on topic, Shawn.

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@sethforprivacy if you like Zcash technology, then just convert what you have into what you like. This is an easier way. I don’t say to my neighbor, “Hey dude, your car is so cool, let’s give it to me.” If I like his car, I have to go to the salon and buy the same one. That’s all.

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Its a terrible idea, hard NO.

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Oh, wise Shawn, you’re right as always. And I knew that sooner or later you would come and write this, so I managed to express everything that i wanted up to this point.)))

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Since we are getting a quick temperature check from the Zcash community regarding the exception it would probably be appropriate to get one from the Monero community as well.

I would love to hear any kind of criteria or list of things the Zcash community is looking for in what open-source projects it will or will not grant exceptions to.

I’m looking for concrete reasoning and yes/no, not subjective opinions about Monero’s community. This is a licensing exception request, not a “do you like Monero” poll.

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I’m not sure how that has bearing on the current request, but obviously you are more than welcome to post that poll there.

I am not reaching out on behalf of the Monero community (we are a decentralized project, I do not speak for the whole) but am reaching out to get clarity on if the project itself can get an exception to explore using Halo 2/Orchard in the future.

I think there are too many risk factors involved in allowing an exception. Time and time again we see Monero post misleading information about Zcash. If we were to grant the exception it could lead to more confusion in the privacy space especially because the Monero Core devs are not as familiar with this level of zkSNARKS imo.

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So your vote is no to allowing an exception to a FOSS project, on the basis of disliking the things certain community members post about your own project, is that correct?

What does that have to do with any licensing criteria? Is the yes/no of an exception for BOSL predicated on like/dislike of community members?

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Why go through the trouble of setting up licensing and gathering feedback from the Zcash community if the Monero community is not interested in adopting it in the first place?

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My criteria:

  • Open source projects that wants to use the code, not just asking for license and then abandon it.
  • Projects that advance Zcash mission in empowering everyone.
  • Projects that respect and understand that this effort is funded by the Zcash community.

I guess this becomes relevant for Zcash community as it would be a waste of time of everyone to grant an exception that’s never intended to be used. Or even worse, asking for an exception just to troll the Zcash community.

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  1. Current interest doesn’t necessarily reflect future interest
  2. I am trying to clarify what path we would need to take before approaching the Monero community with proposals

Asking the community now how they feel about the idea is pointless until we have clarity on if the “Zcash community” will or will not grant an exception, and why.

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I’m not sure I follow the logic here.

You are asking ECC and the Zcash community to take extra steps to support an exception for Monero to use Zcash code, but you are not interested in knowing if the broader community actually wants to use it?

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I asked Webster’s for the definition of irony and I was directed to this forum thread.

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No.

The monero community is defacto banned, per our Code of Conduct : zcash/code_of_conduct.md at master · zcash/zcash · GitHub

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:

* The use of sexualized language or imagery
* The use of language or imagery that originates with, or has been
  adopted as a symbol or "dog-whistle" for, any of: right-wing extremism,
  anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, white supremacism, eugenics, homophobia, or
  transphobia (whether or not the use by itself falls into those categories)
* Personal attacks
* Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments
* Public or private harassment
* Publishing other's private information, such as physical or electronic
  addresses, without explicit permission
* Other unethical or unprofessional conduct
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@joris

Sorry but that is completely incorrect.

  1. The Zcash contributor CoC is not exactly the same as this forums CoC.
  2. There is no such thing as a “defacto ban” here because a user is part of another community, Monero or otherwise.
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Wow, @sethforprivacy really wants to get more fodder for the monero community and bragging rights to the ‘I told you so’ to legitimize further hate of the Zcash community by monero bros.

Lets take this slowly

  1. He doesnt represent Monero in a way shape or form. = He is on a fishing expedition.

  2. He wants to start a ‘conversation’ about allowing special exception to the license (Monero will not necessarily use this code) so far its only a ‘conversation’.

  3. He is trying to clobber ECC and ZF to grant the exception by using the oldest trick in the book, saying:
    ‘‘If such an exception is NOT granted, then it would signal that the BOSL license’s purpose is NOT only to require additional open-source development and thus foster open-source development. It will also function as a roadblock that directly inhibits open-source projects, innovation, and growth.’’
    -Basically, Zcash = bad if they dont grant the license. Not much different to what he has been saying until now. For reference check his twitter.

  4. He asserts: ‘‘I doubt there would be broad resistance to leveraging the technology.’’
    -He is very plugged into the monero chatrooms (as I am, I see him there) and know very well how the monero community reacts to any mention of Zcash in general and collaboration with Zcash in particular. Exibit 1427: Haveno…

  5. He writes: ‘‘I think the tech speaks for itself. The vitriol is usually around the many other parts of the Zcash project, not the technology/code-base itself, to be clear’’.
    -This is misleading. as he himself very well knows most of the hate is not about the tech, as Zcash is superior to Monero in every way. In fact here he is begging for an exception to use Zcash tech. Most of the hate is unsubstantiated lies, smear, conspiracies. So no, the tech will not speak for itself, and there will be immense pushback from the monero community.

  6. He reassures us: ‘‘Leave that side of things to me’’.
    -Where have we heard that before? Cakewallet Grant… and how did they fair with the monero community? They were clobbered into submission, and never even went ahead with the grant. @sethforprivacy knows very well what the reaction will be.

  7. Critria: ‘‘I would love to hear any kind of criteria or list of things the Zcash community is looking for in what open-source projects it will or will not grant exceptions to’’.
    -So far I have just come up with: 1. Not spreading lies, smears, conspiracies by monero contributers, devs, community leaders. and influencers about Zcash. This is my first one. I might have more…

  8. He demands: ‘‘So your vote is no to allowing an exception to a FOSS project, on the basis of disliking the things certain community members post about your own project, is that correct?’’.
    -The answer to that is ‘NO, you are gaslighting again. It is not ‘certain’ monero community members posting. Its the devs, contributers, moderators, community leaders. and influencers. Who told them to parrot all these talking points in the first place? Ah… perhaps it was the leaders of monero who came up with these talking points and seeded the animosity between these two projects?’'…

  9. He claims ‘‘Current interest doesn’t necessarily reflect future interest’’.
    -To that, I would ask, how many times do we have to see the monero community throwing a huge tantrum on r/monero; regarding anything mentioning collaborating with Zcash, before current interest does reflect future interest? We will follow closely the discussion over on r/monero.

To that, I have come to the conclusion that @sethforprivacy seems to be trolling, gaslighiting or generally being disingenous with, and in, this conversation.

On the special exception: Nah, rather not. They should set up a dev fund, and fund their own development.

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Unbelievable. Insane. Irony.

Trash the Zcash project every day for years.

Then come begging to take the privacy tech for your own.

Absolutely not. I can’t believe any human would have the nerve to even ask such a thing.

Oh, and check the polls. Both Zcash and Monero communities are overwhelmingly AGAINST any such gifting of Zcash code for use in Monero.

Of course. :exploding_head:

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