Basics of blockchain economics (and how it should guide protocol changes)

I’m very much in favor of UDAs, and I think something like zUSD could be the killer app for Zcash. But, obviously we don’t want a free rider problem, where ZEC holders pay for the security of UDAs, and ZEC doesn’t capture the value created by UDAs on Zcash. Our blockchain throughput and security is valuable, and we shouldn’t give anything away for free. Let’s capture the value we create and increase the price of ZEC :slight_smile:

So I think Zooko is correct to bring up this serious issue, but it’s a problem that we can solve with careful thought about incentives and value capture. I don’t buy the argument that we don’t need to worry about this just because ‘It isn’t a problem for Ethereum’ for two reasons:

  1. Just because it isn’t a problem for Ethereum now, doesn’t mean it won’t become a problem in the future.

  2. Right now the market cap of ETH is much larger than the market cap of the tokens on ETH. So ETH doesn’t have a ‘top heaviness problem’. But the market cap of ZEC is only ~1B dollars now, would the Zcash chain be just as secure as it is now if there were 10 billion dollars of zUSD riding on top of it?

Bottom line: let’s do it, but make sure the we the ZEC holders are capturing the value we are creating, and maintain the security of the chain.

10 Likes

@balajis — So you are arguing that ZEC holders will likely benefit by adding zBTC and other UDAs without worrying about the dynamics Zooko’s bringing up. Is that right?

This makes sense because it seems that Ethereum benefited.

Can we make a list of all the distinct arguments against UDAs.
Because I think you are bring up a different one from earlier. And its hard to address these things when the topic at hand keeps switching from one argument against to another.

  • You are bringing up the top heavy argument that having UDAs risks the chain being insecure.
    This is a long standing debate for other chains, including ethereum pre launch and now. It’s worth consideration.

  • Zooko’s latest argument (the straw man) was UDAs /ZBTC Cannibalize zcash by making a certain type of whale move from ZEC to ZBTC.
    This doesn’t seem to hold up to any critical evaluation.

    Even if such whales exist, this misses that those whales will move anyway from ZEC the moment some other chain offers private wrapped assets. And it also misses balajis’s point that wanting a native safe private store of value asset (e.g., zec) is different from wanting a wrapped verison of BTC with redemption risk. Meaning zooko’s whale isn’t the whale we were looking for. We don’t want someone who wants zbtc but settled for zec, we want someone who needs a natively private store of value.

  • There was also a fairness argument that somehow letting UDA users get chain space for less is unfair.

    IMHO this can also be dismissed outright. First, as I pointed out earlier , UDAs provide increased privacy for ZEC holders. So it has value and in fact gets a lot of things dangerously backward. But more fundamentally, the premise is flawed. The only thing you pay to access Zcash’s chain is fees. And the proof of this is ZEC pages who’s users only need to pay fees to use it but consume zcash block space and security. We wouldn’t say zec pages success is unfair to Zcash holders. In fact, it makes the ecosystem better.

Are there any others?

6 Likes

Let’s dig further on whale selling ZEC for ZBTC:

The reason they would sell ZEC for ZBTC in the future is because they would value ZBTC more than BTC? otherwise they can sell today for BTC. If not, then ZBTC will be valued higher than BTC? If it’s pegged 1:1 & able to redeem in trust-less way, then it would seem like incentive for ZEC whale to sell for ZBTC in future is same as selling for BTC now.

Summary: Introduction of ZBTC on Zcash wouldn’t necessarily force whales selling ZEC.

1 Like

On a lark I made a Kialo model of this discussion, maybe it’ll be of some use or at least inspire something:

(If you like this tool and want to help i can send you an invite link or you can make your own discussion)

4 Likes

If ZBTC cannibalizes Zcash mainnet, then the Whales will not choose ZBTC.

Zcash mainnet strong – UDA strong – Then Zcash mainnet stronger (CYCLE)

The question is how to make Zcash mainnet more competitive?

2 Likes

The answer to your question need to be separated in 3 different points:

*** Marketing narrative of cryptos for the broad audience?**

BTC: Gold
ETH: Programming finance
FIL: Amazon S3 on blockchain

ZEC: None of all this, but “something” PRIVATE

What is this something? Would it be a lightening Network for private cash settlement? I think the challenge is too big compared to Bitcoin, Libra branding/awarness and the lightening network in place. But Zcash has its place and legitimacy on PRIVACY.
I would definitely use Zcash to shield my full portfolio… ZBTC, ZUSD…

Only at this stage, people will understand the value of the Zcash base network/technology. A base private and scalable layers of assets.
It is known that ETH is willing to integrate 0 knowledge on ETH would make sense for Ethereum, but only Zcash would have this legitimacy to be cross chain private assets compliant.

*** Zcash the network**

As we just saw, there is not even a doubt that Zcash need to implement wrapped tokens including BTC in a Z format. This is something that the global crypto community will need and ask in a close future. If Zcash will not offer it, another network will do it instead of us. We would hence miss the one and biggest opportunity to make the Zcash network usage explode in usage and awareness.

*Zcash the value of its native token

This question is well different from the purpose of the network but it is extremely linked as the ECC needs a financial runway to bring those features to the world.
The major ZEC is facing today is the massive dump of Whales (mainly miners) for BTC. This is due to the high ZEC inflation vs. others since launch. There are no immediate profits to be taken where others assets skyrockets of demand, so the dump is continuous and will not stop. This will cause ECC reserves to melt before being able to provide value to the network…

How to create a bigger holder base + reward early holders + keep the whales on your project?
----> 3 words: Proof of Stake

How to keep value of ZEC when ZBTC will launch?
—> Lock a certain ZEC supply equivalent to a proportion of value of the converted token. Users would need ZEC to Shield BTC, LTC… Zec will become even more scarce than BTC itself. The service granted for shielding an asset need to have an associated cost to it like any bank or safe is Switzerland that propose you their service. And this associated cost will participate in the token scarcity, cost and reward the early participant of the network as holders or stakers.

4 Likes

If zcash is pos this would solve the inflation etc
Pow would cripple zcash in long term and prone to 51% attack…I’m sure the team is smarter to figure this out

2 Likes

Do all ERC20 (including WBTC, RENZEC) removes value to the Ethereum network?
No, this allowed a huge flow capital, transactions, services and awareness under it and hence participated to its actual value… ETH without ERC20 and POS would be ETC… We know what happened to this last one. POS combined with underlying value/activity of tokens of a network is key in the mechanism of whales/miners not liquidating.
Our chance to become the ETH of privacy is NOW. Let’s not become that ETC and let projects like Horizen be the ETH that we deserve to be

6 Likes

Ethereum classic taught everyone a great lesson what ego can do to a billion cap market… Hope we choose a path that leads to brighter future and not the crippled one.

1 Like

Perhaps the Zcash UDA discussion deserves a separate thread? I can move the conversation to be more focused if it would be helpful.

2 Likes

I’m not interested in arguing “should we or shouldn’t we”, and I’m not interested in short-term hype that might (or might not) increase the coin price. What I’m trying to figure out is: how could UDA’s/ZRC-20’s be architected so that they are compatible with the long-term sustainability of the Zcash project and the mission of empowering everyone? I’m thinking on a scale of at least 10 years. The experiments going on right now on Ethereum can’t answer that question for us — multi-collateral Dai is something like 18 months old, TBTC is something like 6 months old. We can’t just “ape into this” as the Crypto Twitter folks say, we’re going to have to think. :slight_smile:

I’d like to see a few specific UDA mechanism proposals, and also ideally the whole design space of “all possible UDA mechanisms” analyzed in terms of how they would impact the sustainability of the Zcash mission. I’ll bet that there are some ways to do it which would give further rocket fuel to the virtuous feedback loop of the Zcash mission and Zcash economics! But I’ll also bet that there are some ways to do it which would do the opposite.

5 Likes

Up to you since you’re the moderator, but for what it is worth, I started this thread because I was thinking about UDAs, so to me this has always been the topic. :slight_smile:

I only mentioned because since you brought up UDAs yesterday the topic has shifted from general blockchain economics (POW, supply/demand/etc…) to wanting to deep dive into UDAs specifically.

I’m fine either way, just want to make things easy to find.

This is a great discussion. Would be interesting to hear what folks like @cburniske (who’s written on cryptoeconomics) and @vbuterin (who is obviously familiar with ERC-20 tokens on top of Ethereum) think about the questions you’ve raised in this thread related to UDAs.

8 Likes

This might be what you intended, but its very far from reality.

The intention or not, the effect these discussions is to block progress. Having had conversations with pretty much every major share holder in the Zcash ecosystem, most think UDAs are worth trying and they want to do them, some think they might not be useful or are easily cloned, and a very few wonder about open questions. But everyone thinks UDAs aren’t going to happen because you’re opposed to them. So maybe you are just musing here, but these musings really are blocking progress.

We need to treat these discussions like what they actually are: part of a community decision process.
This is especially true because as a dev fund recipient, ECC has engineers (some of whom want to work on UDAs) and what they work on needs to be decided. And that’s also true for ZFND.

6 Likes

I think every successful network is made up of primarily three groups:
(1) diamond hands :gem::raised_hands:
• These are the true believers. In the context of Zcash, these are the hodlers. They put their cybercoins in cold storage, run full nodes, and track their balance/memos via viewing keys. They refuse to be scammed into spending or trading their cybercoins. The diamond hands will always be a minority; they have low time-preference.

(2) paper hands :roll_of_toilet_paper::open_hands:
• These are the agnostics. In the context of Zcash, these are people who will keep their cybercoins at a bank (e.g., Gemini). They are largely indifferent to XYZ; they view Zcash as an insurance policy. The paper hands will always be the majority; they have average time-preference. Most people who identify as Christian enjoy the benefits of the network (friends, family, rituals, holidays, etc.) but they haven’t actually read and/or understand their whitepaper.

(3) shitty hands :poop::palms_up_together:t5:
• These are the degenerates. In the context of Zcash, these are people who daytrade countless cybercoins. Their main interest is news — news which they can use to pump or dump a given cybercoin. They want all of the benefits of being in a network without any cost. The shitty hands will always be in a minority; they have high time-preference.

It seems to me that most people already in Zcash are focused on attracting more shitty hands. Let’s have a stablecoin so the shitty hands can more easily go in and out of positions. Let’s throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Let’s turn Zcash into a Swiss army knife. Let’s have tons of features. Killer app this, killer app that. Let’s do XYZ.

I think the successful path going forward, although admittedly a harder path, would be to attract more diamond hands. In order to attract more diamond hands, Zcash needs to address the elephant in the room: attack surface.

Here is how I think the attack surface of Zcash can be reduced going forward:
short-term: getting rid of toxic waste (haters love to point out the trusted setup)

mid-term: getting rid of t-addrs (fungibility is a key characteristic of money)
• I completely understand that t-addrs may have some use cases — but so does actual shit. Like, you can use shit as fertilizer. There are plenty of other t-addr chains out there which can address those shitty use cases. We shouldn’t be a hybrid.
Tesla > Prius

long-term: throwing away the keys (this includes getting rid of the dev tax, ECC, etc.)
• Like t-addrs, the correct way of looking at the dev tax is as a necessarily evil. We needed t-addrs in order to move more easily into better shielded pools. Likewise, we needed the dev tax in order to fund the development of the chain.

I implore everyone to read this article by Nick Szabo. If bitcoin was fungible, it would have already won the money race. Zcash cannot win the money race if it chooses to be less socially scalable. Zcash needs to reduce its attack surface.

6 Likes

This tool should be made known in its own thread. Looks very useful to me considering some of the discussions going on around here lately.

2 Likes

How much engineering time would be required to develop the UDAs discussed above?

That’s quite the stretch. All you need for that is a special z2z that reveals the amount going from one shielded pool to the next.

3 Likes