Dev Fund 2024: Community Poll & Discussion Megathread

Hi @noamchom.

I appreciate the due diligence. That’s why we publish these reports. We take the transparency and accountability seriously and it’s nice to see that you do as well.

The last published transparency report shows that ECC spent about $766k per month during Q3 of 2022. It has been greatly reduced since with the bear market. We’ll have details in the forthcoming reports. During that period Growth and Regulatory averaged 222k per month. The report includes a summary of activities, which I would encourage you to dig into.

Based upon your post, I think you must not have the complete picture, or perhaps you just simply disagree with our thinking. We don’t necessarily discuss all of our actions but perhaps we should do more. However, some of the things we don’t discuss include details of confidential or sensitive meetings. We often meet with various agencies - both formally and informally. We have met with the White House. We often have off-the-record conversations with staffers and politicians on the hill. We’ve worked hard to keep the doors open to Zcash and kill things that pose a threat.

These kinds of activities allow us to build relationships and trust over many months and years. They aren’t the kinds of things that you can measure in a quarter. They lead to other important outcomes, for example, the House Majority Whip embracing and tweeting that “Privacy is Normal” and his office sponsoring us for a hill briefing that will take place at the Capitol later this month on Zcash and privacy. We have cultivated a lot of friendships in DC, including many who haven’t yet fully embraced our values.

This work also allows us access and engagement with others across the ecosystem. Take a look at what we’re doing with the monthly PGP events and recent podcasts. Also take note that regulated exchanges in the US are comfortable with Zcash but not comfortable with other projects that provide privacy protections. That doesn’t happen by accident, it happens through a lot of strategic work and relationship building over time. This work hasn’t been limited to the US, but also Japan, Korea, Singapore, the EU and others. Decisions are being made about whether we will have access to privacy-preserving tech across these jurisdictions. Even in many crypto circles, projects and companies are quick to try to throw privacy under the bus and position blockchain transparency as virtuous. It’s important that our community have a voice in these circles, and we have been that voice.

Will we be ultimately successful? I don’t know. I hope so. We’re busting our ass for our collective future. I think it goes without saying that the world in which our rights to privacy are not protected would be truly dystopian and horrible.

Is our work worth it to this community? I believe so. I hope so. I believe it’s critical, though I understand that not everyone will agree.

As it relates to our work and influence, don’t take our word for it. Perhaps ask other projects about our work, sophistication and influence. The Blockchain Association, Nym and others in the UPA, CoinCenter, and Fight for the Future would be good places to start if you’d like their take.

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In my opinion, the work you just summarized above is one of the ECC’s strongest contributions. I’ve always been impressed with it. I don’t think there are very many crypto projects or projects in general that have anywhere close to this level of experience, networking, and track record.

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Just Sherman. Seems like a good chap.

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When questioned why it cost so much money, these guys said it was because they spent a lot of money negotiating with the government, so there would be no Zcash today without the deal with politicians? Have other privacy cryptocurrencies been delisted from exchanges?

Cryptocurrency is related to politicians, and privacy cryptocurrency is related to politicians. This is a combination of contradictions. Is there really a back door? Otherwise, a cryptocurrency that can truly hide transaction records and cannot be traced will make it difficult for rulers not to worry

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I would advise you to look into the actual code rather than spreading FUD.

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We recently saw a candid comment of the thinking of ECC leader. After SDKs have been released for Edge, Unstoppable, and Nighthawk, ECC will commit to going back to work on Proof of Stake.

We also heard from ZF Executive Director that ZF will focus on Zebra, FROST, and research into programmability (this is open-ended).

We also have QEDIT at some point delivering ZSA functionality and asset swaps, etc.

I propose a simple plan: Zcash Dev Fund recipients improve the UX of Zcash now. And that we measure the improved UX by the following metric: Zcash reaches a $10 billion market cap.

While it may be less exciting than the proposed exotic things, simple things like increase places to spend ZEC, and make shielded-by-default wallets that work like Venmo will probably have more impact. Why? Because it will finally represent a shift in mindset of the leadership to prioritize actual Zcash users today.

Until we satisfy the simple, boring requests of users today, no spending on multiyear research projects. Also, judge wallet downloads of shielded wallets. No long-term research projects until 1 million cumulative shielded wallet downloads.

While Zcash may have 401 cryptography, we are still in 101 business class. These are simple ideas, but somehow hard for Zcash.

We talk all day about the morality of the Dev Fund people. The answer is staring everyone in the face. Make Zcash actually usable and then you will have the money to do open-ended research projects. Not the other way around. Without happy and satisfied Zcash users TODAY, you will not have your funding tomorrow.

If we can’t even get a market cap 2% of Bitcoin with everything that has been done so far, we won’t with POS, Zebra, ZSAs. Why? Because it will be run by people with the same mindset as right now.

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Hm… are you trying to measure a thing with a thang?

While I share your frustration in regards to the Zcash position in the market, I disagree with the steps that you propose.

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FROST isn’t some mathematical mystical marvel demanding years of work for implementation.
The research paper made its debut back in 2020. And while it is surely deserving of praise,
it is yet a reformulation of the Shamir Shared Secret algorithm. Now, with Bitcoin also embracing Schnorr Signatures with the Taproot upgrade, FROST is usable to their users too.
It’s disheartening, truly, to witness another breakthrough in technology being squandered by ZF’s leadership, seemingly in pursuit of sustaining their funding.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/taproot-and-frost-improve-bitcoin-privacy

Just so everyone is aware, this is who you think “is a good chap”:

Great post, I largely agree with everything you said. I think we need to lay out some steps that are more concrete than “get the market cap to $10 billion”, though. I would approach this by laying out a set of “user experiments” that let us measure our success as we make progress towards that goal.

Here are some examples of what I mean:

  • A typical person can get up-and-running with a desktop wallet and mobile wallet within 5 minutes of visiting https://z.cash/.
  • A user living in a top-10 country by population can get started with buying and selling ZEC within 1 day.
  • The owner of an IRL store can start accepting ZEC payments for their sales in 1 day.
  • When a developer browses to https://z.cash/, they feel encouraged to build something using Zcash.
  • After visiting https://z.cash/, a developer can get up and running with example code to base their app on within 10 minutes.
  • It’s possible to build PayPal-like payment acceptance functionality in the top 10 programming languages within a day.
  • Zcash is adopted as the de facto choice within a community that’s historically struggled with censorship by established payment processors or that has a need for privacy that those payment processors can’t meet.

The key is that these are all things we could actually run experiments to measure. People will disagree on how to best achieve a certain market cap number, and market forces make it somewhat out of our control, but usability and adoption can be defined concretely using experiments and metrics like these.

With an agreed-upon definition of usability, we can make sure the heavy-lift protocol development is aimed towards the right goals. Any future protocol change should come with an explanation of which experiment outcome it aims to improve, and then we can run the experiment before and after to measure the returns on our investment.

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To use PoS as an example, rather than making “Move to PoS” our goal, we should rally around something like…

  • It’s possible to spin up a secure Zcash validator in no more than a day’s work.
  • ZEC holders can use the wallet they are most familiar with to start staking in no more than 5 minutes.
  • Stakers have confidence in the security of their staked/delegated funds.

By thinking this way, it’s no longer just about making the best technical designs for the PoS protocol. Things like wallet integrations, front-end validator software and user guides become first-class citizens in the development effort.

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I’d add a possible meta-metric (a metric that is a roll-up of many things) by which to measure success:

Ask someone like @NaomiBrockwell, “how likely are you to recommend Zcash to a friend (1-10)?”

Until the answer is 9 or 10, Zcash devs and leadership should be in Emergency Mode, not getting ready to exit it. (Maybe this sounds a little drastic, but you get my point).

Also, the reason I say Naomi is because she is a great advocate for privacy and Zcash, but also understands the real world. If she were comfortable to enthusiastically recommend Zcash to her wide audience, it would be a signal that Zcash has indeed gotten on the right track with respect to UX.

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I’m going to give you and @mandalorian the benefit of the doubt here in spite of your aggression, that you have the best interests of Zcash and Zcashers in mind, and that my Sherman reference was too much of an inside joke.

Sherman is an enemy to the industry including, as best as I can tell, this project. The allies we’ve built in DC are working alongside us to ensure people of his ilk, including Warren and others, are not able to push through their agenda to destroy what we are trying to build. Though I don’t think Sherman has any real political sway, others do have influence and voice similar opinions. We are at a critical juncture in DC and around the world. In keeping to the topic at hand, the relevant question is whether the community wishes that work to continue and at what level.

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Correct.

And the switch to PoS is marketed to be a remedy against number-go-down. But it’s another technical project requiring the devfund to be extended and that will benefit the incumbents and the deep roots of the Zcash affliction won’t be fixed.

The Zcash affliction is a people’s problem first in my opinion :

  • Greed. Launching a coin without a plan to make UX and marketing a priority.
  • Unaccountability. Free money’s pouring whether a bull market or not, hard work or not, market fit or not.
  • Questionable leadership. Begging for work is unacceptable. Being uncooperative is unacceptable. Being lazy is unacceptable.

I think indeed posterity fund, PoS, 30 years roadmap are all just lazy tricks meant to distract from the real problems. Elon Musk fired 90% of the Twitter staff and made Twitter cheaper to run, and better for the end users, separated itself from doing politics, and is looking to make its platform usable and profitable. I believe Zcash has similar problems and there’s a lot of hard work to do.

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Lol the “Naomimeter”

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In my experience, no one I’ve met who works on Zcash is greedy or thinks of the dev fund as free money. Everyone I know works incredibly hard because they care about bringing financial privacy to everyone. If this weren’t the case, I’d be calling them out. A lot of engineers I’ve worked with put in all-nighters and all-weekenders to get things done, doing far more than they get fairly paid for. The “Zcash affliction” isn’t due to anyone’s malice. In my opinion, there’s misguided strategy and misaligned efforts in our decentralized ecosystem, but I can’t think of a single person who isn’t giving their all to make this project work. For things to get better, we need to move past the blame game and recognize that we all share a common goal, that we’ve made mistakes, and try to constructively agree on the best path forward.

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Perhaps you are striving for a positive outlook, but it appears highly implausible that within an organization of such magnitude, every individual is genuinely committed to the exact same objective. Let us confront the reality: there are individuals who are exploiting the circumstances to advance their own financial interests.

It is our responsibility to ensure that actions of a few disreputable individuals do not tarnish the reputation of the collective.

The ability to attract exceptional talent becomes compromised when the unqualified are accorded equal rewards and recognition.

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I work in the safety/security engineering field, and a core tenet of that field is blameless retrospectives. That’s because all safety-critical industries (like aviation) have learned that creating an environment where people are comfortable talking about their mistakes are far more conducive to bringing problems out in the open and admitting mistakes for the sake of improving. Aviation safety, for example, is based on the principle that pilots should feel comfortable reporting their own errors, without fear of retribution, so that similar mistakes can be taught to others and avoided in the future.

The opposite is an environment where people feel harshly judged, blamed for their mistakes, and fear having ill-intent assigned to themselves. This is not conducive to making improvements because it leads to fear and entrenchment of points-of-view. While accountability is important, jumping to assigning malice or incompetence does a disservice because it makes change harder and can even lead to rejection of alternative points of view. It’s not that I’m striving for a positive outlook, it’s that I recognize that the best way to make effective change is to create a comfortable environment where we can openly discuss problems and learn from everything that’s happened so far.

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In my estimation, it appears that Zcash has veered excessively towards an inclination for positive and optimistic discourse.

We ought to be pragmatic and acknowledge that Zcash is not currently on a path towards success, and it is imperative that certain individuals be held responsible for this poor state of affairs.

Also, I must firmly express my dissent towards the notion that an individual who toils diligently and holds faith in Zcash is automatically deemed an invaluable asset deserving of rewards.

Securing a position within any company is not contingent upon mere fondness for the organization or one’s diligent efforts alone. Rather, it hinges upon the contributions one makes towards the company’s triumph. This crucial point appears to be frequently overlooked within this project.

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Exactamente en 4 años ya se llevaron el 20 por ciento. Si quieres llevarse más que pongan a minarse con Asics o proof of stake cuando este. Ampliar el 20 por cierto a los devs hasta 2028. Es dejar morir a la moneda. SERA SU FIN. Y SI LOS WUE VOTAN AQUI SON LOS FOUNDERS AND DEVS.

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