Hug it out and move back to email
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Hi everyone. There are two related but different things at play here and I think they are important for the community to consider:
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The campaign. It sounds like we all agree that campaigns like this are net good. Great. We clearly had a breakdown in communication between ZF and ECC on the campaign. Perhaps Jack can clarify what he told Mighty Jaxx as they communicated to us that ZF was clear that we didnât have the rights and that they do. We didnât hear from the foundation until we reached out to Jack after they contacted them. We DO have an agreement with Mighty Jaxx that has been negotiated between ECC and Might Jaxx and protects the communities rights. This agreement is more extensive than the template agreement from Zfnd and includes terms specific to ECC and MJâs obligations under the agreement, independent from the Zfnd itself.
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The trademark agreement. Both parties have been using and supporting the trademark. The spirit of the agreement, at least from ECCâs side, is that both parties can use the trademark per this clause:
âTRADEMARK LICENSE. Upon the consummation of the conveyance and assignment of the Trademark Rights to Foundation under Section 2 (Assignment of Trademark Rights), Foundation agrees to and hereby grants to Company and its affiliates a non-exclusive license to: (1) use the Trademark Rights in any form and for any and all purposes in connection with and in support of Zcash and the Zcash community; and (2) use a variant of the âZcashâ trademark chosen and developed by Company, and mutually agreed to by Foundation, in any form and for any and all purposes. All use of the Trademark Rights by Company will be in compliance with the requirements and obligations of this Agreement, including those in Section 6.1 below. In addition, Company agrees to: (a) comply with all Applicable Laws in connection with any use of the Trademark Rights; (b) cooperate with Foundation in facilitating Foundationâs ownership of the Trademark Rights; (c) maintain the standards of quality at least equivalent to those maintained by Foundation in all use of the Trademark Rights; and (d) not take any actions to tarnish, dilute, or otherwise diminish the Trademark Rights or Foundationâs rights therein.â
So, we moved forward with MJ in good faith as both we and the foundation have done on other things to date. In this case, the foundation stepped in. They asserted to MJ that ECC does not own the trademark and have since this morning asked us questions about NFTs, duration of the campaign, future plans, etc. MJ had to make the difficult call last night to delay and pull down content - which also worked out for the reasons they stated (fingers crossed that I too get my order logged in time).
Weâve (ECC leadership) been in strategy meetings all morning (good things ahead!) but will soon respond to the foundation with the intent to get a resolution on the campaign ASAP and to also get to a better solution that allows both parties to accelerate ZEC promotion rather than get bogged down in this kind of thing in the future.
The community was discussing about why this was delayed, and so I responded with that information. Best for the project that we work through this together, honestly and out in the open so that we have the right kind of governance in place to collectively support and promote ZEC well, and without too much friction, to accomplish the herculean mission to empower everyone with economic freedom.
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Thereâs also this clause (6.1):
Prior Mutual Agreement Required for All Uses of the Trademark Rights. As a condition to the conveyance and assignment of the Trademark Rights to Foundation hereunder: (a) the parties acknowledge and agree that the prior mutual agreement in writing of both parties will be required for either party to grant, permit, or allow any third party any license or other right to use any of the Trademark Rights; (b) the parties further acknowledge and agree that until the prior written approval of both parties has been obtained, any use of any of the Trademark Rights is an Unpermitted Use; and (c) both parties covenant and agree not to grant to any third party, or permit or allow the grant to any third party of, any license or other right to use any of the Trademark Rights in any form or for any purpose without the prior written approval of the other party as a Permitted Use. If a party grants a license or any other right to use any of the Trademark Rights to any third party, the granting party will monitor the use of such rights by the third party to ensure that they are in accordance with the scope of the agreed-to grant and the terms of this Agreement. Further, the granting party will indemnify and hold harmless the other party against any third party claims arising from the third partyâs use of the rights, including against harm from dilution or misuse by the third party.
Anyone can read the entire agreement here: https://www.zfnd.org/about/contracts/2019_ECC_ZFND_TM_agreement.pdf
This is news to me. My understanding is that, as of last night, no agreement had been signed.
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Seems to me that community prefers if this discussion had been handled privately. If the issues are irreconcilable, it makes sense to put them forward, not sure if this was irreconcilable or why we all had to involved before a proper conversation was had. Something for both sides to consider.
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Agreed upon between ECC and MJ but not signed as a result of your email and conversation with them.
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Yeah I think thatâs the most concerning part.
Iâm kinda surprised there wasnât already some kind of shared living doc listing all current/prior trademark agreements ECC and Zfnd share and pickup on these things much earlier. I canât imagine either party can assist in protecting the trademark without knowledge of agreements that were made by the other party 
.
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We will be revisting this issue again in the future.
I hope the right lessons can be learned this time.
I am not holding my breath.
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Iâm sorry that a thread I created results in this mom and dad fight situation. 
Can we all take a moment and reflect on what we just did here? Done? Okay, good.
Now, two comments on the whole thing:
- This matter should be resolved privately whenever possible.
- Involving both ECC and ZF in any trademark agreement will be a hassle. Also, ECC folks might want to keep this secret until very close to the launch day. I donât know what kind of relationship ECC and ZF wants to have but stopping each otherâs work is not the best way to move forward for Zcash. It just doesnât make sense that anything ECC does have to go through ZF, and vice versa.
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Doesnt the community want to know how the processes work? How decisions are made? If some processes are inefficient? Kinda weird that ppl dont want to know⌠imo
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No, as I afford some level of trust to both ECC and ZF. I donât need to know everything unless there are matters that needs public comments. Also, involving everyone in these kind of decisions will only impede the projects. Letâs not make Zcash a bureaucracy hell. Dependency hell for our full nodes is enough.
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Community should be involved in some processes. Not all. ZFND is saying they reached out to ECC to resolve this and have not heard back yet, the campaign could have resumed today. Until ECC has had a discussion with ZFND, itâs pointless to raise it in here. Section 3 of the agreement they both signed states that it has to take into account section 6.1 which requires 2 of 2 approval. Am I misunderstanding something?
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While I too afford some level of trust to ECC and ZF, the community shouldnt be micro-managing and scrutinizing their every move. I would like to see ECC and ZF return that level of trust to the community. That would be nice. I think the community has a place in the protocol. Including perhaps identifying inefficiencies in internal ZF and ECC processes and structures.
Yes, Letâs not make Zcash a bureaucracy hell. It already is.
Lets cut it.
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I donât believe this characterizes what happened correctly, but itâs all up in the thread and prefer not to rehash.
We prefer for things like this to be as transparent as possible as the language of the trademark agreement results in implications for the Zcash community and its ability to both use and protect the mark for the benefit of ZEC and its holders. I understand that not everyone wants that level of detail. But we believe sensitive and important conversations should be public and not behind closed doors for those that do. We are stewards.
My post in response to the post at the top of the thread is intended clarify and provide an honest description of the issue and what transpired as a matter of fact. Itâs neither an indictment or defense.
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While I respect ZF trying to protect the trademark, I really think ZF in this case needs to reach out to ECC first, and not to an outside partner of a Zcash project. In this case, MJ clearly has worked with ECC and they most probably is not aware of ZF having share the trademark ownership. This sets a bad precedence and many people might be put off from working with a Zcash entity in the future.
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Thank @joshs for your openness. I think most of us appreciate it. I think things just get awkward when it feels like âmum and dadâ fight infront of the kids. (Agree, thatâs what it feel like @tokidoki).
On the topic of openness itâd be pretty cool if the community was privy to some of these agreements after the sensitive/secrecy period has concluded 
.
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Agreed. As a stakeholder, I like to have a good sense on the pulse of the project, otherwise I may re-evaluate my investment/commitment/interest.
Thatâs the entire idea of building things in this space. Itâs what corporations have stolen from us, and building in public (https://buildinpublic.com/) is only going to get more popular so itâs time to embrace it.
The takeaway from all of this is something that I will repeat again (and again until itâs fixed): there is some fundamental dysfunction between the ECC and the Zcash Foundation that needs to be addressed and changed. Iâm willing to bet that ego and financial incentives are both a part of it, but I wonât speculate any more than that.
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The last trademark dispute/discussions I believe were a part of the dev fund structuring discussions, feels like a while ago now
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This isnât even close.
Section 6.1 is clear and unambiguous:
the prior mutual agreement in writing of both parties will be required for either party to grant, permit, or allow any third party any license or other right to use any of the Trademark Rights
both parties covenant and agree not to grant to any third party, or permit or allow the grant to any third party of, any license or other right to use any of the Trademark Rights in any form or for any purpose without the prior written approval of the other party as a Permitted Use.
ECC cannot unilaterally license the marks. Plain and simple.
LOL. It was the ECCâs responsibility to reach out to the ZF, not the other way around. You seem to imply that the ZF should not have contacted Mighty Jaxx. Yet you made no effort to abide by the ECC/ZF agreement prior to signing an agreement with Mighty Jaxx.
Itâs rather easy to give lip service to decentralization. Much harder to walk the walk and actually abide by the agreement that you voluntary signed.
You owe the ZF an apology.
The fact that a representative of the ECC would come on here and try to justify the ECCâs clear breach of the agreement is an insult to our intelligence.
No amount of marketing spin is going to convince me otherwise.
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@hloo I think itâs unfair to blame ECC here when ZF trademark policy doesnât even acknowledge ECC. I donât want to play the blaming game here. Having said so, ideally, ZF does not contact the third party directly when they are aware the 3rd party has established partnership with ECC, another trademark holder.
Do you expect ECC to ask for ZFâs permission in everything they do with regards to the Zcash mark? I donât expect ZF to ask ECCâs permission and, I assume, ZF generally doesnât ask for ECCâs permission.
I certainly donât want ECC to interfere with ZFâs work when there is a future marketing project of the foundation that uses Zcash mark.
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I have a name. I didnât spin.
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