Zooko talking about PoS. PoS vs PoW Discussion


#81

I’m good to move to POS now, thanks everyone.

Just want to add, POS or zcash needs it’s own hardware.


#82

I like your idea that ‘the wallet must be online’.

Only a fool would hold a mega-balance in a hot wallet so that would help limit staked amount.


#83

Would you still be good to move to PoS if they required 1,500 Z cash to stake. Or how about 100? Being able to stake 1 coin would make the PoS system extreamly slow.

There are many drawbacks to PoS, the someone who keeps mentioning it every post seems to skip over these parts.


#84

POS something that needs work, so it is not option right now.
but its future, agreed. never argued with that.
but right now we have a choice, bitmain or asic resistance.


#85

It took me some hours to make this list to see if your argument is a valid one. The coins are choosen by transaction speed and not by me (just as a sidenote!). I checked each coin to see it’s minimum stake.

Ok, let’s compare average transaction speeds, transactions/s and minimum stake for the POS coins and let’s see if they are indeed slower and how it’s compared to the PoW coins:

  • Zcash, Asic, 15 minutes, 7-27 transactions/s
  • Bitcoin, Asic, 78 minutes, currently ~3-7 transactions/s
  • Ripple, RPCA, 4 seconds, ~ 1,000,000+ transactions daily (Visa Level!),
  • Bitcoin Cash, Asic, 60 minutes, ~10 transactions/s ???
  • Litecoin, Asic, 30 minutes, 56 transactions/s
  • Ethereum, GPU, 6 minutes, 12-25 transactions/s,
  • Dash, Hybrid Asic/POS, 15 minutes, 28-56 transactions/s, 1000 Dash minimum stake = ~154,000$, lol,
  • Augur, Hybrid POS, 6 minutes, transactions/s (limited to ETH?), strange staking here, no idea how it works!
  • Monero, GPU, 30 minutes, 4 transactions/s (bevor bulletproof!),
  • Cardano, POS, 3-5 minutes, (all notes validate!), 257+ transactions/s, no stake minimum
  • IOTA, PoA, 3 minutes, DAG, claims 1.000.000 transactions per second, no staking possible,
  • Steem, POS (Proof of Brain), 3 seconds, 1,000+ transactions/s, couldn’t find minimum stake so far
  • Stratis, POS, 6 minutes, < claims 20,000 transactions/s, 1 Stratis mimimum stake, 1.45$
  • Ardor, POS, 60 seconds, ~100 transactions/s, minimum stake 1000 Ardor = ~ 110$
  • NEM, POS/Proof of Importance, 30 seconds, 3085 transactions/s, minimum stake: 10,000 XEM = ~1,000$
  • Stellar, 5 seconds, ~1,000 transactions/s, automatic staking, compensates for inflation
  • Spectrecoin, POS, 30 seconds, ??? transactions/s, Stealth staking!, no minimum stake, suggested 7.800 coins = ~1482$ for daily reward
  • NEO, POS, 15 seconds, <10,000 transactions/s, 1 NEO minimum stake = ~18$
  • Electroneum, Asic, 75 minutes, faster transactions for higher fees, ??? transactions/s
  • Bitshares, POS (dPos), 2 seconds, 3,300 transactions/s, claims 100,000 possible, staking trough elections
  • Nano, POS (dPos), 5 seconds, 7,000 transactions/s, voting with stakes
  • EOS, POS, 1.5 seconds, 50,000 transactions/s, seems to be dPos, must check this further!
  • Tron, POS (dPos), 5 seconds, 1,500 transactions/s, currently only voting
  • VeChain, POS, 6 minutes, 10,000 transactions/s, no stake minimum
  • Qtum, POS, 4 minutes, 60-70 transactions/s, no stake minimum
  • PIVX, POS, 60 seconds in private mode, 173 transactios/s, no minimum stake, garantee monthly reward 1.000 PIVX needed, ~1,400$
  • Kommodo, Hybrid POS,?? minutes, ~10,000 transactions/s on 64 chains, minimum stake 1 Kommodo,

Fastest Binance Deposit Times:

  • Nano, 3 seconds
  • Stellar, 5 seconds
  • Ripple, 10 seconds
  • Neo/Gas, 20 seconds
  • Iota, 2 minutes
  • Verge, 2,30 minutes
  • Groestlcoin, 5 minutes
  • Viacoin, 6 minutes
  • Monero, 6 minutes

Some of the Resources:
https://u.today/which-cryptocurrencies-have-fastest-transaction-speeds
https://www.abitgreedy.com/transaction-speed/



#86

Principally the designs are available, i agree it would need some work in case Zcash plans to introduce it at some time. After you agree it’s the future someone has to work on it as i doubt it will come without work on it itself, lol.

Just generally, with POS you get asic resistance, even not only a temporary one, but one forever, the problem would be automaticlly be solved after asic resistance seems to be the main problem/wish.

P.S.: You didn’t answer yet how big your gpu farm is? Is it a secret you avoid the answer? 100 GPUs? 150? 200? 250? I could bet it’s somewhere in that range, right? :thinking:


#87

So what kind of profit off of POS compared to mining?


#88

That would completely depend on how POS was setup. But long story short the more you stake the more you earn. But the more people staking large amounts, the less there is to divvy up between them all. So I see a slanted table towards those with deep pockets still, a numbers game where those with more win, and those with less get edged out over time.

I’m looking at Horizon and what happened / is happening there as an example. It looked like a great thing at first, but as saturation levels are hit and passed, there isn’t much compensation to staking your coins. POS is “a” solution, but even it is not a perfect solution, and I always assumed it would be the natural movement when mining plays out (or something similar to it). I don’t think a “great” solution exists just yet, although POS does remove the hardware from the mix.

One secure node on Horizen would have an ROI of:
|Annual Profit:|9.77 ZEN ($137.16)|
|Annual ROI:|23.26%|

Base on todays active secure nodes, and the current price today. You would have your coins tied up and earn ~$140 a year. Not much incentive for it really. Unless you have a lot of nodes.


#89

It still needs hardware. Laptop, desktop, tv, refrigerator, toaster, microwave etc. And be on 27/7.


#90

not really. $5/month VM is all you need to stake. Price of which was calculated in the annual profit ROI. That was also assuming no new nodes get added…which is unlikely. What I’m getting at is no matter what model you come up with. There is always going to be winners and losers. The losers will always be the ones with the shallower pockets.


#91

I was watching utube videos of a guy who invested $3,500.00 out of his own pocket to research POS with 14 different coins and see which one’s where more profitable then the others. And a year later didn’t make very much.


#92

This would be absolutly up to the POS design, mechanisms used like max. stake, stake duration, cool down time, how many and which random factors are included and some other factors each POS design can or can not include.

I would even go as far as saying that whatever profit you get with POS it will be better in about 1 year latest than PoW mining (no matter gpu/asic). As soon as ETH switches (latest) there will be no more profit for the majority of the private miners anyway. Once all these gpu’s switch coins all the rest is just done ( i could be wrong of course, but that huge amount of gpu’s on ETH will bring down the other coins profitability in my opinion).

Using Moordriks example of ZEN, Annual ROI of 23.26% doesn’t look bad at all. Having in mind that on a bank account today you get nearly nothing this looks pretty good. People looking for better ROI of their investment still can bet on new coins, mine new comer coins and and and… The big ROI for the top coins is gone anyway by now…


#93

Do you have a link of that video? Would be interesting to see if he bought in bullish and made the math in bearish.

But beside that. I’am as well testing weekly POS and i absolutly admit there are a lot of sh*t POS designs and coins on them. Like they hybrid Dash, who the hell can invest 140,000 USD? Rediclious unfair, no doubt. Not even talking about the POS on the “scam” coins, of course you are losing here soon or less. IF someone promises you (like i have seen) annually 200+% POS rewards it won’t work out mostly. IF greed is bigger than brain, there is a good chance things will get bad.

But than again, you wrote the guy didn’t make much, that’s still better than a lose at all, right?

Strange nobody is commenting on the lower transaction speed and transactions per seconds. This even shocked me yesterday when i made that list yesterday. With 15 minutes speed and an average of 17 transactions/s we are a joke compared to privacy POS coins …


#94

10000 stakers = 10000 tx?


#95

?? not sure i understand this post? Can you explain please?


#96

There is another thread which is better suited for proof-of-stake discussion (ping @shawn): ASICs in Zcash Software / Proof of Work/ Proof of Stake/ Fork Discussion


Let’s talk about ASIC mining
Let’s talk about ASIC mining
#97

This get’s a bit tricky now what where when to post and where to draw the line what where belongs.

Just for example, where to post that list where i compare transaction speed, transaction/s in POS, GPU PoW, Asic PoW???

Eventually it would be best to close this topic and indeed continue in this Asics in Zcash/Proof of Work/Proof of Stake/Fork Discussion where indeed all further steps could be discussed…

This thread is from 25th February and by now we have different conditions, not?


#98

POS discussion has been moved to this more recent thread.

If its a ASIC vs GPU discussion for mining then it goes in the Let’s talk about ASICs thread.

PoS vs Mining goes in this thread.


#99

Its nice you made this list and everything, but when I talk about nodes on the network taking time to come to consensus with PoS, and the more nodes you have the harder it is, its not about transaction speeds.

EDIT: Also some of the fastest coins you use as an example are NOT a pure PoS system, they are DPoS. DPoS You delegate X amount of nodes that act for the network, this way you dont have millions of nodes. This was a fix to the problem of having to many nodes and slow consensus speeds.


#100

I agree that the fastest POS or POS like Coins in the List are dPos or even not a real POS like Ripple.

However, there are enough examples that proof that even with ALL nodes staking it’s still has a faster transaction speed and more transaction per second.

A good balanced coin in my opinion is NEM, if i remember right they have 30+M wallets online. Of course not all of them are staking. From what i read (testing them next week) for vesting (Staking) it’s done with 20.000XEM, but the wallets with 10.000-19,999 XEM are used for system’s security and accountability, called harvesting there, and again get rewards for this task. Interesting unique setup, hence the 30 seconds transaction speed, hence 3000+ transactions/s…

Now of course if transaction speed and transaction amount aren’t a factor for future, so it be, but i have some doubts we are going far with average 15 minutes and some average 17 transactions/s, lol. But for me, nowadays, these numbers look allready ancient seeing what the competition is able to achieve…