Defenders of the ZEC

even if all participants were bad actors; worst that could happen’s creating artificial supply, and we’d immediately know it. your z_TX’s would still be safe. whilst not ideal - creation of artificial supply has happened to a lot of CCs, and they survived it. i believe cryptonote based coins was one of them.

also, thanks for taking time to post!

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I’m not a brain, but I do understand the elements of zero-knowledge proving systems. It’s my opinion that it is effectively impossible to reverse engineer - so to speak - a “z” transaction. That said, what’s this business about tracing transactions? If they involve “t” addresses, then sure, but “z” addresses cannot be traced since the cryptological foundation on which it’s built does not allow it by its very nature as I understand this stuff. Maybe someone can enlighten me…

Also, doesn’t XMR use transaction mixing to prevent tracing? I cannot see how a system like that could rival a zero-knowledge system at all. Moreover, Charlie Lee has his own agenda, and when folks like him make remarks, I take them with a grain of salt.

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This was a pretty straightforward video (part of a series) that explained a bit about Monero’s privacy methodology. Perhaps it (and a few of the other follow-on videos [Ring CT] etc.) will help with this.

I’ve always personally found the vitriol exchanged between many XMR/ZEC supporters to be pretty fascinating, honestly. Especially given that it is most frequently fought between people that have immutable opinions and often lack complete understanding of their own cryptocurrency, let alone the opponent’s. What’s more…most of them don’t give a flying f*$k about the truth. I believe we, as a community, should strive to do better. 972e69f0ef3ca479a2b152684b09da08--secret-crush-old-school

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So far what I’ve seen is that no matter how good of evidence you give they always refer back to those tweets of backdoor. It created untrust. That’s where it stemmed from.

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It can’t. It tries to hide what a zero-knowledge proof never reveals in the first instance. And really, anybody who believes a mix scheme be more private than a zero-knowledge proof must be under the influence. Hmmm.

Inter linea:

The Monero troll attacks against Zcash follow a quite familiar pattern, well-known to anybody who has ever read a gentleman’s guide to manipulation of social media. In certain venues which dominate popular attention, persons who evidently have 25 hours per day of free time suddenly flood every thread with anti-Zcash screeds which make up in volume and emotion for what they lack in substance. Conveniently, some of them also openly express how well the “plausible deniability” of Monero’s minuscule anonymity sets will ostensibly get you off the hook before a jury (!).

Zcash bigwigs rarely reply to such attacks. Perhaps they are just too busy to Argue On The Internet. But also conveniently, they occasionally say something which sounds friendly to “law enforcement”. This makes Zcash anathema to anybody who has a pathological blind hatred of the policeespecially when such statements are endlessly repeated by Monero shills.

As late as the 1980s, Swiss banks still had excellent privacy. But they did not want dirty money. They didn’t care if you had kept up all the paperwork demanded by the bureaucrats in your home jurisdiction. They didn’t want to know about that; that was none of their business! But if, say, you were a drug dealer, they did not want your business. So, legitimately rich people stashed their private coins in SwitZerland; while drug dealers paid outrageous percentages off the top to attempt laundering their money, not always successfully.

Conclusions are left as an exercise to any reader who has studied how to build privacy-enhancing technologies, and defend them against the “social attack”. This is a people problem, not a technical problem; thus it has a people solution, not a technical solution.

Aside, I have a pet hunch that the bubble in June was a deliberate maneuver by a high-cap market maker to shear the idiots who bought Zcash high (so to speak) for prospective illegal use. They won’t be back, and good riddance.

Note, I myself have had some reservations about Zcash unlinkability. Other criticisms, too. I’m not married to it. But it should say enough that most of my (small) worldly wealth is currently locked up in the global anonymity set of note commitments.

At the bottom line, people: Please let the Monero trolls do their thing, and drive the artificially addle-brained to use Monero in their “markets”. Ignore them, and save Zcash for smart people who just want some privacy. That is defending the ZEC. Thanks.

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I read Snowden’s tweet and the butthurt monero fanbois were vicious in their attacks on Snowden and all aspects of zcash. This monero troll army gang attacks with the same old tropes and FUD. I’ve seen other threads where they attack zcash based on how Zooko looks in a photograph! There wasn’t much of any pushback from zcash users in these threads, although some brave souls tried (although such pushback against such negativity is unlikely to convince any of them that zcash has merit and that there could be any other privacy coin other than monero). Very sad, but this is the internet for you.

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Children and their childish banter, they only promote zcash by making it seem like its something coveted by not what they’re saying but by how their attack is conducted, after scrolling for so long any diatribe becomes meaningless and soon assumed malicious regardless of its points, soon the noisy children will be shunned and sent away in dismerriment and whats really great is the reverse psychology of it, they’re doing it to themselves

And this is coming from a community who’s own developer is publicly lying to them ‘to teach them a lesson’. Oh well, I guess they deserve each other.

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are you referring to fluffy’s last pump-n-dump? thought that was hilarious!

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Yes: https://www.bitsonline.com/fluffypony-speaks-troll-monero-market/

Imagine the response from Monero trolls if a zec dev would do something like that.

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https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/913994157022171136 behold fluffy in all his glory! kekekekek

side note/pro tip - if you have something to lose; never get into a public argument with an anonymous troll that knows what they’re talking about. nothing good can come from that!

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That, and we have an explicit policy not to, except to correct clear technical falsehoods (and we don’t usually have time for that).

The funny thing is if they actually knew the politics of some of us on that subject… (I’m a trans, queer, anarchist. Look at my twitter.)

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It speaks volumes about the “credibility” of an asset developer who plays “jokes” on their “investors.” If we were speaking of stocks, such a “prank” would land him right in prison, and that’s nothing to joke about.

The animus from the Monero bunch is more internet tribalism. I can’t see, however, how this “Ring Signature” and stealth address business can be anywhere near as secure as a zero-knowledge proof. Anyone who claims otherwise is only expressing their ignorance.

From what I am learning of the “Monero Community”, it sounds like it’s composed of ill informed members who are listening to opinions instead of learning facts. That doesn’t foster value to an investor if you ask me.

The main value proposition that ZCash offers me is that it offers true transaction privacy. As I know this stuff - and it’s not much - only ZCash uses a zk system to make private transactions. That makes it unique among the others to anyone who loves privacy. That the Zcash team is working to improve the speed of “z” transactions means that adoption rates should likely increase over time.

What I specifically DO NOT like to hear is that anyone would assure any law enforcement group that they will make their transactions accessible. The philosophy of Cryptos is specifically outside of any government control or intervention. I find access, influence or control of crypto by any government disgusting.

guess fluffy doesn’t want to defend his statements on the forum https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/914095502903431168

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To some extent, but there are some caveats:

  • Any benefit in terms of detecting overall inflation from the cryptography used in Sprout will only be realized once transactions that spend Sprout notes are disabled.
  • It is only the overall monetary base that is audited, and this doesn’t prove that there was no balance violation. An attacker who was able to exploit a balance flaw could keep the amount of forged currency below the amount they expect might fail to be transferred from Sprout to Sapling due to lost keys, for instance.
  • The Sapling setup also needs to be performed securely. This setup will be split into two phases, both of which must be performed securely, but each of which are scalable to more participants than the Sprout setup was. Importantly, each phase will not require participants to hold secret key material for the entire setup; they can do their part and then immediately delete the key material, and check at the end that their contribution was included.
  • Compromise of the setup is not the only way that a private cryptocurrency can experience balance violation, as demonstrated by the post-setup balance violation flaws in Monero (unexploited), ByteCoin (successfully exploited), and Zcoin (successfully exploited).

I think it’s likely that there will always be a hard core of skeptics who are not prepared to accept any form of trusted setup. On the other hand, the improvements in Sapling are such that a lot of people who are currently on the fence about the secure setup issue will be persuaded.

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Please refrain from saying things like this on the forum; it doesn’t help and is against the forum guidelines.

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This adherence to regulatory standards is one of the main things that secures zcash’s Future, i work in medical marijuana and its situation is very similar, its basically brand new industry with my company amidst a slew of unfounded competition (who are only able to compete because the markets on fire right now) with governments creating new laws all the time. My company’s focus is strict adherence to these ever changing policies which has allowed it to prosper (wont go into details but well be in Canada next year) while many other fly by nights have come and gone. This is why I chose zcash, because it has a future, and if for no other reason.

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Oh, my. Thanks for the laughs, @kek. That led me to something I have now made sure is quotable on archive.is, web.archive.org:

fluffypony_zero_knowledge

“Proofs of knowledge are not encryption, at all, on any level.” — Riccardo Spagni (@fluffypony), 2017-09-30, proving his zero knowledge of encryption. (I presume under the random oracle model.)

BREAKING NEWS!!11 I am now partnering with Mr. fluffypony. Ship your worthless Zcrash to my profile location to get in on the ground floor with hot my new ICO for SnakeOilCoin®! I guarantee that you will receive zero coin. It is like I will make your coin disappear. Very private!

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Thats is frickin hilarious! Lol

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New article
Zk-Starks? New Take on Zcash Tech Could Power Truly Private Blockchains

via Blockfolio: goo.gl/p95yia

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