Do not change the algorithm

  • There are other coins you can mine on equihash, not only Zcash
  • nobody promised that zcash will stay asic friendly, neither the other projects on equihash
  • when you buy an asic its always risky business, you got even a warning on the Bitmain page about it.
  • why the hell should a multi-milion dolar business like Zcash keep/adjust their algo due a profit wish of a random guy? Just no logic and without any common sense.
  • If you are not ok with the risks hardware takes with it, just buy coins instead of hardware.

How do you mine zcash?

with 2 rigs 1080ti and 1x Z9 mini, why?

thought this will be a GPU vs. ASIC discussion, but you`re are at both sides, this is a alternative I like.

this doesn’t change anything. A company and/or successfull project should make their decisions for the projects favour, not about the wishes/profits of a handfull miners, no matter if gpu, asic, fpga, cpu or whatever.

At this point I think a move from PoW to PoS is the best scenario for everyone. Doing this would level the playing field substantially so that GPU miners can still be a relevant and part of the community. PoS would increase the amount of memory required for the ASIC to the point that external memory chips would need to be used. This would lower the performance of ASIC architecture, but would by no means render them useless or prevent future ASIC development. In addition, there are several security concerns pertaining to the use of PoW as recently pointed out by Ethereum’s founder Vitalik Buterin. He said the following:

“PoW is extremely expensive, and furthermore is fundamentally vulnerable to 51% spawn camping attacks with no effective strategy for recovering from one. Selfish mining is profitable starting at 25-33% hashpower, and 51% censorship attacks are definitely profitable.”

Is this alone not a reason to consider a move from PoW to PoS? When we add in the issue of centralization and exponential increase of network hash rate and difficulty due to ASICS, I think there’s more than enough ammunition to make this argument. At this point, I’m not sure why the ZCash team is hesitating, unless there’s some unknown security or technical reason. Having more folks in the ZCash community has many benefits and also helps facilitate the ultimate goal of ZEC being adopted as an actual currency that’s used daily.

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I will add some arguments and reasons why the future should be POS and nothing else:

  • no more cheap specialised hardware needed, every cell phone, pc, laptop should be enough in the long run.
  • with the above you eleminate one of the biggest hurden, expensive hardware, opens doors for wider spread.
  • no more mining pool middle man needed which in theory create themself a possible threat for a 51% attack.
  • no more only computer technical advanced people are able to mine, again enforcing wider spread.
  • unfair starting positions are nearly eleminated as cheap electicity cost doesn’t realy matter anymore.
  • no more total useless “waste” of electricity. Have in mind we fund and finance here some of the biggest monopolists in every country
  • real wide spread, everybody can have a staking wallet, not only a closed community of miners.
  • fresh cash flow. As soon as the average joe without expensive hardware and technical knowledge can take part in mining “staking” new cash will flow into the crypto.
  • no more sponsoring/financing unfair asic producer practices (secret/private mining).
  • no more mining under unfair conditions, applies for both, GPU’s/Asics as both face unfair conditions vs big mining farms.
  • enchanced security (51% attack, time spoof attack, * attacks)
  • direct investments into the project instead of hardware and hardware producers
  • more project loyality of stakers/coin holders, no more easy dumping like miner rewards currently.
  • easier project/code changes as nothing is anymore related to a given algo.
  • less centralization, mining pools, producers, farms are not more a decentralization threat.
  • many more less imortant points …
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Even though I have one Z9 mini, I think the algorithm should still be changed so that Zcash works better with Ethereum and/or other performance optimizations not related to mining.

Whatever algorithm is decided upon should:

  • Force miners to only mine Zcash
  • Be ASIC-friendly and easy to implement (multiple manufacturers)
  • With some degree of certainty, last for at least a decade.
  • [your idea here…]
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Should be mineable by GPU’s and ASIC’s to increase decentralization, in roughly equal proportions.

Asic is the trend。:+1:t2::+1:t2::+1:t2::+1:t2::+1:t2::+1:t2:

Two of you guys are already mining with a Z9 Mini, so how does it benefit you to change the algo parameters from 200,9 to 144,5? It will dummy your Z9 investments and do what, fracture a part of the Zcash community. I just don’t see the benefit guys, help me understand.

I am fine either way now since I have both. I will ROI before a parameter change could be done since it was pushed back to April. I will be moving my GPU’s to ETH within the next 2 months dependent upon difficulty increases.

I am still concerned with the health of the Zcash network and consolidation by 1 company however, which could prevent future beneficial upgrades. For that reason I think they should find a way for people worldwide to mine profitably and that includes GPU’s.

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I don’t see a problem here to understand, some (rare) miners prefer a healthy project over some small investement ROI. Not sure how many Z9mini the others have, but me has just 1, no big deal at all.

Not everybody is willing to sacrifice a good project for a small personal profit. I prefer zcash to be healthy and raise in price, that will profit me more with my ZEC holdings than some fast bucks with a Z9, but than again, i’am for POS by now anyway and not for wasting resources for some questionable algo changes/switches/forks/whatever.

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You make some good points. Where I disagree with you is in the “forcing miners to only mine ZCash”. I think with a new algorithm, the best way to approach this is to give incentive to consistently mine ZCash. Even those with ASICS have a choice to move to another equihash coin if ZEC become less profitable. ASIC usage does not mean ultimate loyalty. Giving all miners incentive to stick with ZEC and not chase profits I believe is the best way to address the concerns you’ve made in past posts about network stability/security.

As for being ASIC friendly I entirely agree. For me, the issue is more about leveling the playing field so that the mining network can include as many people as possible. This will bring the project much closer to the ultimate goal of adoption as day to day currency. I won’t repeat the benefits of moving from a PoW to a PoS again as its been stated several times in other posts, but I still feel this is the best way to do this.

Finally I agree, whatever changes are made need to work for as long as possible for ZCash to be successful. Constantly changing algorithms every 6 months is unfeasible and takes away valuable development time. I think there’s a happy middle here that benefits all stakeholders, but its going to require some work to find it. Is the ZCash development team up to the challenge? Stay tuned, we’ll see.

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When miners switch to another coin for profitability reasons they leave Zcash less secure. This actually hurts the Zcash price. When miners are squeezed coins become more rare and the value of them will increase as a result. It’s basic supply/demand economics. If miners can switch coins there is less Zcash demand, difficulty decreases, coins are easier to get and the price stays flat or drops.

Further, a lower price decreases adoption when Zcash should be gaining in adoption relative to other competing cryptocurrencies like Monero.

You do not understand the fundamental ideals of cryptocurrency. Forcing people to do what you want is exactly the situation cryptocurrency was designed to fight in the first place.

There will only be a handful of successful cryptocurrencies in the end. If you want people to mine your crypto then get them to commit on principal, get them to commit on the merit and success of the coin. Forcing to mine your crypto is just more of the old financial system that crypto WILL eventually replace.

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I agree. Root is incredibly confused.

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This is the situation as it was the whole time, and we had a Zec Price of $ 800.
So there is in no way a relation between price and different miners.
In my opinion, Asic miners will sell all to make Roi, a lot of GPU miners are Hodlers, Hodlers make a coin rare, cause they are here, but not for sale, that makes them rare.

And then the point, made by some people before, and there is the real power of the coin in my opinion, mouth to mouth talk.
A lot of my friends mined Zcash because I did, they all started with their game pc’s and began mining.
Some have bigger rigs then I have now, some stopped. But it was through that friends group who started mining , that even the ladies in our group can name more Cryptho then Bitcoin alone.
If I had shown them an Asic, I still could have telll them every birthday about a coin named Zcash.
You need a community, and that should be a fixed 1, Miners, Investors ( can make it big, can lose everything, think about that too fellow miners, there are going to be more losers ) tech people, marketeers. All have different views, here should come some kind of consensus, instead of all fighting for our own.

Look at Electronium ( I love this coin, they fucked up everything, the ICO, the mobile miner, the Fork … )
But 1 bad word on Bitcointalk on Electronium and the believers come out. That I miss in Zcash

And 1 more thing, and this is a little personal Root, because I made an account this year, doesn’t mean I am not involved for a longer time. Believe me, I am in right after the Genesis block, I have a lot to thank Zcash for, what Zcash gave me, I gave back by keep on mining Zcash, although there were better alternatives.
I Icould buy several Asics, I don’t want them, If that means no longer Zcash mining, to bad, it realy hurts me, because I have love for Zcash. If it means no longer mining with GPU in the whole Cryptho space ?
Then I had a nice hobby since mining bitcoin and I will move on.

Still I wonder why the Algo isn’t switching 1 time to 144.5 just to see what happens.

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@ZC93 That’s exactly what I wanted to say to @root. Consent is an extremely important part of cryptocurrency from an idealistic/social point of view.

Cryptocurrency has been all about financial freedom, freely transacting, privacy and giving the middle finger to fiat banking systems that haven’t included or worked for ALL people for a very long time. At its core, its about “consent” “independence” and “freedom”. Its not about making miners “slaves” to the some coin’s mining network. How’s that any different than the broken fiat financial systems that we are all forced to use today? Aren’t we all slaves already? If you want to have a successful coin that’s fully adopted, there has to be some “incentive” for miners to “consent” to mining your coin, it cannot be “forced”. Whether that be cutting edge new technology, a high market value, or some other reason, its the coin creator’s responsibility to earn the miner’s consent and thus their loyalty.

I’m tired of hearing you and others talk about “forcing miners”, how do you think that’s going to work out? Whether that’s forcing miners to upgrade to an ASIC or forcing them to go GPU mine another coins, you seem to be OK with generally forcing folks to comply with your ideas/vision or showing them the door. In my opinion, its the ZCash Company’s responsibility and frankly opportunity to find a solution that includes ALL people who’d like to be involved with ZCash as this drives towards the ultimate goal of complete adoption as an actual currency. It’s that “My way or the highway” viewpoint and way of handling things that has pissed off a majority of GPU miners who have walked away from the ZCash the last month and we’ve seen how that has made the market value of ZEC crumble. A community solution is crucial to the well being of ZCash.

The approach should be “We are all in this together” as that sort of direction is going to take ZCash much much further than forcing, giving ultimatums, and generally showing a lack of respect and appreciation for those who participate in mining. It doesn’t matter if you want to run an ASIC, FPGA, GPU, CPU, mobile phone, Rasberry PI etc. it’d be in ZCash’s best interest to find a way to include everyone and anyone in the community if they choose to give their consent. This is how you grow a cryptocurrency, build a strong community and eventually achieve complete adoption.

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Cryptocurrencies allow people the freedom to be their own bank, hold their own assets and Zcash allows that to happen privately. That is different from the economics and game theory behind mining.

When miners can switch coins based on profitability, it stifles the growth of the one they are switching from.

It’s simple: when miners switch, the Zcash price stagnates because of reduced demand. This is standard supply/demand economics.

get them to commit on principal

The fundaments of Zcash that allow for private and verifiable transactions with zero-knowledge proofs hasn’t changed. The only thing that has changed is that some miners have felt displaced by newer, more efficient mining hardware.